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  1. #21
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    Jan. 25, 2009
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    278

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    You are getting good answers here. My asking about the feed and turnout was to say what Mr Bloomer and EqT already said...if you have a large crena and had a long warm fall with grass available later than ususal, and your horse has some mild laminitic changes....well, its going to take until a lot later in the winter to grow out the crack.

    And photos are a very poor way to assess a trim. Too much distortion from the lens, which can make the hooves look better or worse.



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    13,469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusoluv View Post
    Simkie: you may be seeing the RF leg in the background? His LF leg is the light silver gray hair only. Does that make things look better? He has excellent breeding and conformation. His VERY thorough PPE done on east coast was passed with flying colors.
    I think Simkie was just pointing out something that should be taken into consideration. If the photos are not showing what is actually there then Simkie is not at fault for mentioning what they show.
    Last time I checked a PPE does not comment on general conformation faults (unless they are such that they are a cause for concern). So having a PPE does not mean the horse does not have slightly too vertical pasterns.



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2001
    Location
    Cullowhere?, NC
    Posts
    8,672

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    I can't imagine a decent farrier who would be offended by the offer of baseline xrays.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2006
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    10,226

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    Is it possible this horse has deep sulcus thrush? It looks like there might be a thin deep line running through the frog up through the heel bulbs. Such a thing would cause the horse to weight his heels less and cause them to contract. A good treatment is Tomorrow for dry cow mastitis. I've used it for thrush with good results.

    Also, if those pastern angles are accurately represented in the first photo, the toes are too long, which could explain the persistent crack.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
    Location
    Port Charlotte, FL
    Posts
    3,451

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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Is it possible this horse has deep sulcus thrush? . . .
    Nope, but he could use a better photographer.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
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    15,232

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    The solar shots show a long toe.

    The lateral shots show a short toe.

    So how in the world can anyone give responsible trim advise based on a photo?

    If the lateral shot is correct (and even if the solar shot is correct because bet ya the soles are thin) and you back up those toes without providing protection, my crystal ball indicates the horse will be sore after the trim.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
    Posts
    18,472

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    ^ yes.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul. 30, 2007
    Posts
    377

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    I closely studied my horse's front feet today as I know a photograph taken in 5 degree temps with a hand-held camera and flash, will never replicate in-person perspective, no matter how good the photographer is Tom. So here's my take on things after all the advice has been floated out to me:
    I think my horse has long toes in relation to the angle of the back of the foot. However he does land heel first. I also think his bars are too high and bear too much weight, causing him to be foot sore for a couple days after a trim. The outer sole doesn't do all the work. His bars should be lower towards the back of the foot so the frog can bear more weight and spread vs. contract in the heel as it does now. He doesn't have seedy toe (though he might get it if the crack remains), he's not been lame and hasn't had thrush. I don't have White Lightning on hand so I did apply Durasole to the crack since I had it in my trunk. Will get White Lightning to keep the nasties out of the crack. I will talk to my farrier again. It's not as if I haven't said anything, but I haven't pushed too hard as he doesn't like to be questioned. I'm the only barefoot rider in a big show barn. I have a feeling he trims my horse the same as he does for a horse that gets shoes and from everything I've read, that is not the correct approach. I already listed what my horse is fed, and though he's not on a low NSC diet, he only gets half a scoop of pellets twice a day, so the bulk of his feed is forage 9-10 flakes of Timothy hay through the day.



  9. #29
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    15,232

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    Based on those photos, shortening or lowering anything without applying protection will sore the horse.

    The crystal ball has spoken.

    You have to ask WHY does he have long toes-it does not just happen-why does he have long toes, apparently thin soles and a sad little skinny frog.

    You have to figure out the reason for these things to be happening.

    And my crystal ball says not to throw the farrier under the bus-the ball says he is doing the best he can with what he has.

    He see the horse 25 minutes every few weeks...the rest of the life of this horse needs to be considered.

    A little tip as well-if you want to have a barefoot horse, I personally don't think it can happen without a very controlled NSC diet plus proper exercise.

    Even 1/2 scoop 2x daily can be excessive unless the horse is performing at a pretty strong level.

    FWIW, the solar shots present in the photos like about every other horse that has a diet too rich for his current workload...but that is just a side comment from the photo as presented.



  10. #30
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    10,226

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    The solar shots show a long toe.

    The lateral shots show a short toe.

    So how in the world can anyone give responsible trim advise based on a photo?

    If the lateral shot is correct (and even if the solar shot is correct because bet ya the soles are thin) and you back up those toes without providing protection, my crystal ball indicates the horse will be sore after the trim.
    You address the heels first, and then you address the long toe. But you don't just leave a toe long.

    But you knew that, right?



  11. #31
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    Jul. 30, 2007
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    377

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    My horse works at a very strong level. He works at PSG dressage 5 days per week, and though he'll work up a good sweat even in these low temps, he is barely breathing hard though he's done lots of collected work and powerful movements in self-carriage. He is turned out half the day and while I'd like it to be more, that's better than the 1-hour per day the farm does. But I respect what you say about the low NSC diet. Since the farm gets Nutrena feeds delivered, maybe I can switch to SafeChoice for my guy to hit this from both ends. I agree my horse has tiny frogs that are not being allowed to spread and bear weight, hence the contracted heels.



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusoluv View Post
    . . .
    I think my horse has long toes in relation to the angle of the back of the foot.
    Without radiographs showing sole depth under the tip of P3 immediately following a trim, I don't think it is wise for you to make an assumption about the toes being too long.

    However he does land heel first. I also think his bars are too high and bear too much weight, causing him to be foot sore for a couple days after a trim. The outer sole doesn't do all the work. His bars should be lower towards the back of the foot so the frog can bear more weight and spread vs. contract in the heel as it does now. He doesn't have seedy toe (though he might get it if the crack remains), he's not been lame and hasn't had thrush.
    Maybe you should test your hypothesis. Buy some tools and make the corrections to the trim that you think should be done. It is your horse after all.



  13. #33
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    Jul. 30, 2007
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    377

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    Tom, I am very tempted to buy some tools, but you know the old saying, "Too many monkeys with razorblades"! But I am trying to educate myself so I don't sound like I played around on the internet one day and then try to tell my Journeyman Farrier how to do his job. I know he is trying very hard to help my horse, is not pushing me to shoes or wanting me to worry....but that's my nature.



  14. #34
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    You address the heels first, and then you address the long toe. But you don't just leave a toe long.

    But you knew that, right?
    really? you are certain that works in all cases?

    how exactly are you going to 'address the heels' on the foot in either of those photos.

    hint: the correct answer is NOT rasp MORE and leave the horse bare.

    think carefully and draw on your years of experience before you respond.



  15. #35
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusoluv View Post
    My horse works at a very strong level. He works at PSG dressage 5 days per week, and though he'll work up a good sweat even in these low temps, he is barely breathing hard though he's done lots of collected work and powerful movements in self-carriage. He is turned out half the day and while I'd like it to be more, that's better than the 1-hour per day the farm does. But I respect what you say about the low NSC diet. Since the farm gets Nutrena feeds delivered, maybe I can switch to SafeChoice for my guy to hit this from both ends. I agree my horse has tiny frogs that are not being allowed to spread and bear weight, hence the contracted heels.

    If he is working that hard on those feet you may be heading for trouble.

    I will say again I don't think this is a farrier issue but a 'husbandry issue.'

    Neither Nutrena nor SafeChoice would be on 'my' accepted list though others may have different experiences.



  16. #36
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    really? you are certain that works in all cases?

    how exactly are you going to 'address the heels' on the foot in either of those photos.

    hint: the correct answer is NOT rasp MORE and leave the horse bare.

    think carefully and draw on your years of experience before you respond.
    Man, we REALLY need the old rolly-eye emoticon back.

    Hint, one needs to address why that frog looks the way it does. I've already made my suggestion. Yes, based on a couple of photos where it's difficult to tell exactly what's going on. Thus use of the word "suggestion".

    Will you pul-lease stop trying pretending like you are a hoof guru.

    Thank you.

    OP, good luck with your horse. I'd love to see updates.



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jul. 22, 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    811

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    PLEASAE weigh your feed! Scoops are NOT accurate, and feed companies expect you to feed by weight, which is how the vitamin/mineral ratios are calculated...so, feeding by scoop will not get you the right amount of nutrients, and you probably will end up deficient in certain things.

    As somebody who's horse had a very persistent toe crack (which was a combo of fungus/bacteria and an imbalanced diet) it takes some work to fix them! Tiger Lilys finally got the chance to grow out when I diligently cleaned the crack, as well as started feeding a high quality grain (by weight!) and well as my excellent farrier trimming/giving me suggestions.
    "On the back of a horse I felt whole, complete, connected to that vital place in the center of me...and the chaos within me found balance."



  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
    Posts
    15,232

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    I guess GAP no longer has me on ignore.



  19. #39
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post

    Hint, one needs to address why that frog looks the way it does. I've already made my suggestion. Yes, based on a couple of photos where it's difficult to tell exactly what's going on. Thus use of the word "suggestion"

    so you would lower the heels based on these photos? That is your final answer, hoof guru?

    The fact that you are challenged by what is going on in the frog only proves you may want to sit this one out and gain a little education.

    Will you pul-lease stop trying pretending like you are a hoof guru.


    *I* am not...you however???


    Thank you.

    my pleasure

    OP, good luck with your horse. I'd love to see updates.
    OP when you have a moment ask the credentials of those offering advice.

    Just a suggestion. One I would consider as opposed to the 'suggestions' of those offering advice with zero hoof care education.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb. 19, 2006
    Location
    Sevierville Tn
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    177

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    No one here can really help you much more than offer an opinion based on two cruddy photos at this point. X rays are a good start for your farrier as well as simply expressing concern over this crack and see if you can get a better answer. If you are concerned, he should be able to give you a reasonable and understandable answer on it. So are a good set of pictures if you want better opinions online. Ditto diet being very important. I would look at that carefully as it affects feet profoundly.



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