The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default New thread with video, please be gentle, please....

    Please note, I took the links down, as I've got a lot to chew on from these comments. Thank you all for your feedback! Can't wait for it to warm up enough to get back in the saddle to work on everything!

    For those of you who don't want to read through the whole draw reins thread/debate, here's some video that might help. Are we really where we should be, or is there something else I should be doing? He's 5, coming 6, warmblood, almost 17.1hands, and clearly not done growing yet. He's been seen by chiropractor, dentist, saddle fitter, etc, so I'm confident all this is training/age related.

    Quote Originally Posted by alto View Post
    If you're brave enough, you might start another thread with video
    Of course there are some things that you need to be on the horse to feel - does your trainer ride the horse? does he/she have the same issue?
    Oh my god, that is really scary!!!! I'd rather ride my big, huge, strong greenie in a Parelli clinic than post a video on COTH!

    However, in the interest of getting the help we need here is a couple of links that show the good, the bad, and the ugly. Please go easy on his rider. She is a recovering jumper rider, switching to dressage for the sake of the giant thigh blocks.... She knows about the problem with her feet being too far in the stirrups, and that her horse is not nearly forward enough, and that she really doesn't look too small for him, even if she feels that way....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNap0_hWn0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6ZlUgIN0kY

    Unfortunately, my trainer was in a horrible riding accident years ago, where she was nearly paralyzed, and hasn't ridden since. I've ridden with a couple of other dressage trainers, and this woman has them all beat HANDS DOWN when it comes to seeing and solving training issues as they arise. She is pleased as punch with where we are. But then again, she doesn't have to ride the big bean every day like I do

    I had a Grand Prix dressage trainer out a couple of months ago, and he would not even walk forward for her without kicking out single every step. Her solution? To tell me my rubber reins were too thick, I needed to ride in a half-pad, that my horse clearly didn't know how to give to the bridle. Well, I kept my reins and nixed her. I think that trainer was used to riding horses far more finished than mine is. I don't know of any other traveling dressage trainers/young horse riders in my area who will come to me. One of the hunter trainers at my barn is a lovely soft rider, and she has the same problems I do. Her fix would be draw reins and spurs.

    I thought spurs in dressage were only for lateral work, not forward momentum? If I were training him up as a h/j prospect, I'd wear him in spurs, and did a few times when he was a long 3 year old just so he'd be used to them, but haven't since switching to dressage training when he was 4 1/2. We've been with my current trainer for just about a year, and she has really helped him work forward long and low, and get moving. This stage of getting him to accept working into contact is no fun for him, and he's making it clear!
    Last edited by aWp; Jan. 24, 2013 at 01:30 PM. Reason: explained why links won't work--they're removed!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,566

    Default

    Video doesn't exist
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2010
    Posts
    1,723

    Default

    Both your links are broken - ???

    If you mention where you are, people might be able to suggest other trainers or local help.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,566

    Default

    Ok, they work in the other thread, so you might have copied/pasted a broken link from there.

    I watched some of both videos, but not all of either, so...

    I see a typical big greenbean who loses focus, is trying alternative options, and gets behind your leg.

    In the very early stages of the first video, when he's farthest from the camera, I see you try to fix his head as his stride gets shorter and shorter - that's backwards And that goes exactly to what you said you were doing, which was trying to get him "back into the bridle at the expense of forward"

    Forget about his head. Boot him forward and once he's got that big engine engaged again, his head will fall back into place.

    Now, before someone has a coniption on "boot him" - I mean, reinforce that he's to get going with that hiney. You've already asked him with your legs, he's forgotten or chose to do something else, so use the whip. BTDT.

    There is zero need for DRs here. He goes nicely when he's going but he does "wander" mentally, and yes, he probably does actively test you fairly often, but the answer should always be the same - if you lose your impulsion, I'm going to request that you get it back, and then we're square.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    I fixed the links, and hopefully, they're working now.

    I actually am cracking him with the whip throughout these rides. I have a long dressage whip with the end of a crop to it, so it makes a noise. He really doesn't respond well to the whip, either, the bugger. The one thing I haven't done is taken a crop and whapped him on his ass when he loses impulsion.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    If you mention where you are, people might be able to suggest other trainers or local help.
    I'm in the south central Massachusetts area. If I were up near Concord/Acton/Harvard, there's a ton of dressage around there, but nearly as much near me. I did ride with Sibley Hannigan for a little while, and I could see if she'd be willing to come pay us a visit, but I've never seen her get on a horse.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2010
    Posts
    1,723

    Default

    I am a sort of newbie, but I have to say I think draw reins would probably make this little devil worse. This comes from my vast experience of watching my barn mates work with similarly oriented horses who get some kind of perverse pleasure from just.not.going. I ride an Arab so this is not my problem (I have a raft of other ones) but the absence of a go pedal would drive me nuts.

    I know this is not the time of year for it, but do you ever take him out of the arena? IMHO he needs to get outside and get moving. Forget the head for a while as long as you have steering and stop. Read some Jane Savoie about how to get him hot off your leg, take him outside and rev him up.

    You need Pierre Cousyn - he is a genius with this type of horse, but alas! He is in W. Palm Beach.

    ETA: There is an art to using the whip with this type as well. I cannot give you the exact method (I didn't pay attention because a whip at every stride would put my horse in the rafters!) but I know it is there. If you use the whip at every stride, you are de-sensitizing the horse to it, so it ceases to work as any kind of incentive to get going. Again, I've seen it happen - horses can be amazingly stoic once they get the rider's number.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Sadly, we're in the middle of an arctic cold snap here, so getting out is not an option at the moment. We've been doing some cavaletti work and small jumps, but not even that gets him going when he's in a mood.

    I exercise ride an Arab at the barn--I LOVE his motor! I love riding him!

    I'll check out the Jane Savoie. Thanks so much for your thoughts!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2006
    Location
    on the edge of suburbia
    Posts
    251

    Default

    It could be baby stuff...however, I experienced nearly identical behavior/not using hind end AT ALL when first got my horse, and ....
    his Lyme titer was off the charts.
    Doxy, then combined with good trainer completely resolved it.
    You live in Mass. ...I would have it checked.
    Wiiliam
    "A good horse is worth more than riches."
    - Spanish Proverb



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    2,920

    Default

    Well, after reading your draw rein thread and seeing the video I have to say that you shouldn't use draw reins. You horse is on the forehand, behind the vertical and lack of impulsion because he isn't straight in his body.

    He is a lovely young horse that needs guidance and with consistent good riding, all of this will disappear quickly!

    You are concentrating too much on his head and wiggleling to much with your rein. You have stiff elbows and when you sit it is too abruptly and/or too deep and too far back in the cantle.

    You shouldn't sit the trot at this point because your horse doesn't have a strong back and he needs all the space available to raise it for now without having to lift you as well.

    You should be working on half halts. This would straighten him, make him use his behind, respect the contact and get a longer smoother strides. Right now, despite his size, he has a short choppy stride.

    And I will add that, like the GP trainer said to you no matter if you don't want to believe it, you should probably put and half pad to protect a bit more your horse's back, you should actually have a saddle fitter adjust your saddle because you are swinging back and forth in it so maybe just rising the back end with a cushy pad would help? This GP trainer was also right about your horse's not giving to the bridle. He is not. Maybe she didn't use the correct wording? Your horse is not accepting the contact in a sense that he isn't "throught" (energy coming from behind-flexion of the hocks-lowering of the croup-round back-elevated wither--arch neck - supple poll- energy back in the hand - elbows- seat and legs - start back the weel.) The energy of your horse stops at the bit, and it has to go thru.

    As for the too thick reins, I don't like those fat stiff rubber ones either. And you won't see much dressage riders use them. They aren't made for subbtle cue. And if you have tiny hands, you won't be able to close your fingers properly and you'll be more gripping on the reins and be stuck. That is, of course, my opinion.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cb06 View Post
    It could be baby stuff...however, I experienced nearly identical behavior/not using hind end AT ALL when first got my horse, and ....
    his Lyme titer was off the charts.
    Doxy, then combined with good trainer completely resolved it.
    You live in Mass. ...I would have it checked.
    I actually did treat him for Lyme last October/November. His titer was off the charts. He absolutely refused to do any stretching over his back at all until he was treated. Thank you!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 13, 2012
    Posts
    196

    Default

    From what I see, I think that if he actually starts to move instead of dinking around, and the rider stops being so loud with her hands, he'll really start to improve.

    You really can't judge him unless he's moving out. Right now he's perturbed at the inconsistent contact and the moving reins, and the lack of speed and the focus on his face doesn't help much.

    I would suggest 1) impulsion 2) quit focusing on his face 3) working on moving OUT instead of bringing his face IN.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Well, after reading your draw rein thread and seeing the video I have to say that you shouldn't use draw reins. You horse is on the forehand, behind the vertical and lack of impulsion because he isn't straight in his body.

    He is a lovely young horse that needs guidance and with consistent good riding, all of this will disappear quickly!

    You are concentrating too much on his head and wiggleling to much with your rein. You have stiff elbows and when you sit it is too abruptly and/or too deep and too far back in the cantle.

    You shouldn't sit the trot at this point because your horse doesn't have a strong back and he needs all the space available to raise it for now without having to lift you as well.

    You should be working on half halts. This would straighten him, make him use his behind, respect the contact and get a longer smoother strides. Right now, despite his size, he has a short choppy stride.

    And I will add that, like the GP trainer said to you no matter if you don't want to believe it, you should probably put and half pad to protect a bit more your horse's back, you should actually have a saddle fitter adjust your saddle because you are swinging back and forth in it so maybe just rising the back end with a cushy pad would help? This GP trainer was also right about your horse's not giving to the bridle. He is not. Maybe she didn't use the correct wording? Your horse is not accepting the contact in a sense that he isn't "throught" (energy coming from behind-flexion of the hocks-lowering of the croup-round back-elevated wither--arch neck - supple poll- energy back in the hand - elbows- seat and legs - start back the weel.) The energy of your horse stops at the bit, and it has to go thru.

    As for the too thick reins, I don't like those fat stiff rubber ones either. And you won't see much dressage riders use them. They aren't made for subbtle cue. And if you have tiny hands, you won't be able to close your fingers properly and you'll be more gripping on the reins and be stuck. That is, of course, my opinion.
    Thanks, alibi! It's odd about the reins--seems like there's a big divide between those dressage riders who like them, and those who don't. I feel like such a speck of dust on top of his back that I prefer them for him but not other horses.

    I agree about the wriggling, etc. Riding him is humbling and humiliating at times, and I have a VERY hard time riding his size. I usually don't sit the trot except when I feel like there's nothing else I can do to drive him forward, or he's so behind the leg that I can feel a buck coming and I'm trying to save my fanny.

    I'll work on the half halts, and doing everything I can to still my own motion.
    Do you have any exercises, suggestions for getting him more forward? I completely agree about the size of his stride--I've always thought he was too short behind especially. Working him over cavaletti seems to be helping some with that. Do you have any other ideas for working with it?

    When the saddle fitter came last week, we fitted out a half pad for him that does exactly what you suggest, and it's helped some. Both he and the chiropractor agree the horse isn't sore anywhere from it which is great. The saddle is also too big for me--I can't seem to find any affordable 16" dressage saddles--and I fight it, too, especially when I'm working like the dickens to keep the giant pony going.

    As for giving to the bridle, when I got back on after the GP trainer was on, I did exactly what she was asking for, and he gave me the response she wanted from him. I see what you mean about him not being through--I completely get it. In the video, I'm having a real dilly of a time driving him forward as you can see. I guess if the GP trainer had been able to actually walk him forward around the ring even one whole time (she got off before she'd even finished one long side, as he was kicking out at her so much), I might have been less inclined to dismiss her out of hand. At some rudimentary level, reins are reins, and yes, when you're riding at GP levels, I'm sure that kind of subtlety makes a world of difference. However, at introductory or training level, I'm not convinced that they would mean all that much, especially if the first concern is to drive the horse from behind. I could be wrong, though! I guess I didn't trust her because she seemed to blame the tack rather than offer constructive feedback or solutions. I'm sure she felt just as frustrated with me and my horse as I did with her. I've never seen anyone else have such a hard time with him as she did, and I couldn't figure out why.

    With the match here, we'll be lucky if we're doing second level ever, and I don't claim to be the right rider for him. Sadly, he's got to go to work for the rider he has, and I've got to work with the horse I have, for the time being anyway.
    Last edited by aWp; Jan. 23, 2013 at 11:25 PM.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2011
    Posts
    1,188

    Default

    What Alibi 18 said.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arab_Mare View Post
    From what I see, I think that if he actually starts to move instead of dinking around, and the rider stops being so loud with her hands, he'll really start to improve.

    You really can't judge him unless he's moving out. Right now he's perturbed at the inconsistent contact and the moving reins, and the lack of speed and the focus on his face doesn't help much.

    I would suggest 1) impulsion 2) quit focusing on his face 3) working on moving OUT instead of bringing his face IN.
    Do you have any suggestions for getting him to move out? I know exactly what you mean about the loudness! Sometimes riding him is like trying to move a concrete block. I've never worked with a horse so behind the leg like this, so any suggestions for how to get him going would be much appreciated!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    May. 13, 2012
    Posts
    196

    Default

    aWP - For the forward issue, I would suggest leaving his face alone and isolating your cues for speed. If it's a nudge, kick, tap, smack, WHACK on the behind, fine. However, it can't be nudge, nudge, kick, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, TAP, tap tap...

    Whenever I ride, I get my forward cues in place first. I expect MOTION when I ask, not a "Hm, I'll think about it and get back to you later, k bai" from the horse. It only takes one or two large WHACKS for the horse to get the memo.

    However, it's important to remember to ask first. Don't immediately WHACK. It may be a split second between the tap and the WHACK, but there is an ask in there first.

    So, my suggestions are to leave his face alone for now. It isn't doing anyone good, you or him. Forget about the fake "yielding" and just get down the moving of the limbs first. A neck strap might be nice to wrap a finger around so you stay off his face while you're organizing the speed cues too.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arab_Mare View Post
    Forget about the fake "yielding" and just get down the moving of the limbs first. A neck strap might be nice to wrap a finger around so you stay off his face while you're organizing the speed cues too.
    Thank you! I love the idea of a neck strap! That might be just what I need for me to be more consistent as I work on the forward part. I'll have to get going on those WHACK on the behind corrections!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Thank you all for the replies! I've got a lot to work on here. No draw reins for my guy, that's for sure. Thank you for the confirmation of that! I'll be sure to point all my hunter/jumper barn mates to these threads to justify being one of the only riders at the barn who won't use them.

    I took the links down as I've got enough to work on for a while! I'll post "after" video when we get everything straightened out!



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2007
    Location
    (throw dart at map) NC!
    Posts
    4,560

    Default

    I was able to watch the first video but not the second...and now I can't see either. Weird!

    From what I recall from watching the first video, I would not use draw reins on this horse. He can get behind the vertical and lose impulsion and I think the draw reins would exacerbate this problem. he's very nice when he's on the bit and moving forward. I know you've had everyone under the sun look at this horse but this horse looks uncomfortable to me - or very unforgiving and I just don't see your riding that poorly as to interfere with his forward behavior. You saying that the other accomplished riders had similar problems riding him. Unfortuantely, I can't seem to watch the video a second time. Were you sitting? I would not sit this horse until he's comfortable moving forward in the bridle and you are sitting correctly. I don't think you have anything to lose by trying a gel pad or a sheepskin pad.

    I would not ride this horse with spurs. Often, spurs can get a horse to raise his ribcage and back, and have the effect of slowing down the forward momentum. If *anything*, I'd consider 1/2 inch knob end spurs, but I don't this horse doesn't need spurs.

    If there is truly nothing wrong with this horse, I would try donning a forward seat saddle and doing cavaletti and small jumps. GALLOP him around that arena. Outside riding - nice forward trot, canter, gallop. Teach him to trot forward, reach into the bridle, and strengthen his topline a little with small jumps and cavaletti and ground poles. Don't even think of his face being on the vertical, think of the forward. Once you have that forward momentum, have him reaching forward and down to the bit, go back to your dressage work, trying to keep that same forward thinking *without* insisting on a frame. The frame *comes* when the horse is working over the back.

    I wish I could see the video again! Thanks for posting them.
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2010
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Thanks, JLu! I actually took down the links, as I realized I can only handle so much feedback at a time :-)

    I wonder, too, if some of the discomfort you sensed is holdover from the Lyme disease recovery. It seemed to get him at his loins and through the stifles, even, and he might not have fully recovered yet. Treatment ended just about two months ago, and his titer said he'd had a chronic case of it. It might simply be a case of needing a little more time in that department.

    Thank you for the nice words. Yes, everyone has had problems with the forward part with him, especially when he gets sticky! If he's loose and swinging, he's a dream to work with, but when he gets jammed up, it's nearly impossible for me to hold it all together, especially with his size. At some point, if he's still like this 6 months after the Lyme treatment, I might have his stifles and hocks x-rayed to rule out any issues there. My fear is that he's got OCD lesions, especially because of his size.



Similar Threads

  1. SPINOFF of TMI thread - First Period Video
    By saultgirl in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Aug. 14, 2011, 06:45 PM
  2. The 'OMG have you seen that Youtube video?!" thread
    By LearnToFly in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Sep. 3, 2010, 12:15 PM
  3. Spinoff from the KWPN stallion video thread... Young Totilas footage?
    By EquusMagnificus in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Apr. 23, 2010, 11:00 PM
  4. Follow Up Thread: Video
    By RegentLion in forum Eventing
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Sep. 30, 2009, 10:09 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •