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  1. #301
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Um. I didn't say they were. Please read again. I will even sum up for those that missed it: Some do, some don't.
    I understood your post the first time.

    My interest in figuring out if BNTs are at the forefront of drugging nevertheless as a compelling reason behind it. If the backyarder with the rank horse uses drugs, no one has to care. After all, who aspires to that lackluster performance? When a BNT does it to push an already superb horse into the stratosphere of the jumping Western Pleasure horse, a whole lot more of us have to meet that bar or lose.

    So the "Don't tar all BNT's with the same brush because of course it varies among individuals" is a true and fair-minded statement. But it's not helpful.

    ETA: And another thing!

    If the (guilty) BNTs didn't have the best success at keeping clients in the dark about what their horses are getting... if the BNTs didn't enjoy such heavy representation in the USEF's committees and, frankly, it's collective eye.... they wouldn't leave the impression that there are two sets of rules--- one for the elite and one for everyone else.

    IMO, the BNTs have something to do with the impression of the USEF being an old boys' club.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #302
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post

    I've read post after post after post of MIKES MCS that would lead ME to believe there is a large chip on his shoulder. Maybe there's not, but it's the impression he's left on me.
    I believe MIKES MCS is a woman. I think I was corrected about that a while back. MIKES will you tell us where you keep your 'nads once and for all?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2003
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    CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I believe MIKES MCS is a woman. I think I was corrected about that a while back. MIKES will you tell us where you keep your 'nads once and for all?

    Must've missed it. I don't spend nearly as much time on this board as I used to. It's not the group it once was. :shrug:
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #304
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    Jan. 27, 2003
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    CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I understood your post the first time.

    My interest in figuring out if BNTs are at the forefront of drugging nevertheless as a compelling reason behind it. If the backyarder with the rank horse uses drugs, no one has to care. After all, who aspires to that lackluster performance? When a BNT does it to push an already superb horse into the stratosphere of the jumping Western Pleasure horse, a whole lot more of us have to meet that bar or lose.

    So the "Don't tar all BNT's with the same brush because of course it varies among individuals" is a true and fair-minded statement. But it's not helpful.
    Truth is ALWAYS helpful.

    People who have to make overblown generalizations, exaggerate their statements and/or constantly use us/them arguments are never going to get the logical people on board with them. The second you go there, the "details" folks will say "LIAR" and stop listening.

    But seriously...I think this thread is about EM. for a minute there I thought it was about hunter judging.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
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    Former Long Islander now in the middle of the Great Lakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I believe MIKES MCS is a woman. I think I was corrected about that a while back. MIKES will you tell us where you keep your 'nads once and for all?
    LOL , Yes I am an old woman.. the handle has to do with my business.. sorry for the confusion. To whom ever said I have a chip , I really don't.. I am not anti meds, .. I am a hobbyist now and only deal with baby or pre greens .. We often here comments like "that is the only excitement I will see for the day from the starters , when one of the babies plays in a corner in a 3'0" pre green " but I have seen to much to pretend drugs aren't the norm .. Our sport is no different then cycling. You want to play to win you use what ever it takes to keep you competitive. When you show 38 shows a year you need a lot of help keeping a horse sound and sane, They don't get turned out, they often travel a lot of miles in trailers , spend 20 hours a day in very small stalls.. get lunged in small circles sometimes an hour or more a day several days a week.. It really isn't like in the old days , horses did not show as much and while this was a prestigious sport it did not attract the show and go crowd it does today.. If you rode as a junior back then you pretty much only rode.. now Juniors are expected to participate in 16 other sports , Many Adults even if there well off have High stress Jobs and can only ride once or twice a week. The truly wealthy even though they could are not devoting their every waking hour to riding. This is reality and even the best of trainers can only do so much prepping so, much schooling, so much lunging, so much warm up classes sooner or later that amateur un-fit rider is going to get on that saint of a hunter and get bounced out of the tack if you can't guarantee a perfect trip , How do you do that with out trainers little helper and still keep a business going???
    BNT's attract Big Money Clients by producing winners and sometimes , often times that is just not possible by letting nature take it's course..
    It all trickles down which leaves a lot of unqualified "trainers" copying some of the methods they have heard about the BNT's using , whether or not they have a clue of what their doing or not. which often times produces tragic results.
    It's just very sad that this is happening in the pony ring all in the name of trying to make ponies safe for kids that probably shouldn't be competeing at levels they are put in.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Feb. 10, 2012
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    170

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    I am not a big time breeder and I have been lucky but the 4 times I bred horse or pony, I started with a good mind, athleticism, movement , etc. the 4 I got, after being in training with me and my child for one month, were going the same as they go now, 14-20 years later. All were quiet, auto, hack and o/f winners and totally idiot proof. They didn't need drugs then and outside of annual hock injections for the older ones, they don't need them now. Again, I was lucky. I had 2 amazing mares and bred them to 2 amazing stallions.
    Looks are important but maybe, rather than blame the judges and trainers, can't we, as a country, breed talented, athletic, sane horses? I know a lot of the big money goes on imports these days. I am just a glorified pony mom. If I can hit 4 for 4, those that breed hunters for a living should do a whole lot better.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2008
    Location
    missouri
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    1,158

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    those three letters used to describe trainers mean next to nothing anymore. it is rather like the new clothing sizes.... 5/7/9 used to be small. now we have size 0, it is the SAME size that 5 used to be but people feel better about themselves to be a smaller size.

    i always had several well qualified student to take to the finals. i never took them by myself not because i wasn't qualified but because of the clout. that is just a fact.

    one of them jugged a lame horse with DMSO all night before the finals. that was it for me. the entire aisle stunk of it and there were horses strung up on jugs all through the barns. you are all kidding yourselves if you do not think this is an EPIDEMIC in the industry.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #308
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2007
    Posts
    262

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKES MCS View Post
    LOL , Yes I am an old woman.. the handle has to do with my business.. sorry for the confusion. To whom ever said I have a chip , I really don't.. I am not anti meds, .. I am a hobbyist now and only deal with baby or pre greens .. We often here comments like "that is the only excitement I will see for the day from the starters , when one of the babies plays in a corner in a 3'0" pre green " but I have seen to much to pretend drugs aren't the norm .. Our sport is no different then cycling. You want to play to win you use what ever it takes to keep you competitive. When you show 38 shows a year you need a lot of help keeping a horse sound and sane, They don't get turned out, they often travel a lot of miles in trailers , spend 20 hours a day in very small stalls.. get lunged in small circles sometimes an hour or more a day several days a week.. It really isn't like in the old days , horses did not show as much and while this was a prestigious sport it did not attract the show and go crowd it does today.. If you rode as a junior back then you pretty much only rode.. now Juniors are expected to participate in 16 other sports , Many Adults even if there well off have High stress Jobs and can only ride once or twice a week. The truly wealthy even though they could are not devoting their every waking hour to riding. This is reality and even the best of trainers can only do so much prepping so, much schooling, so much lunging, so much warm up classes sooner or later that amateur un-fit rider is going to get on that saint of a hunter and get bounced out of the tack if you can't guarantee a perfect trip , How do you do that with out trainers little helper and still keep a business going???
    BNT's attract Big Money Clients by producing winners and sometimes , often times that is just not possible by letting nature take it's course..
    It all trickles down which leaves a lot of unqualified "trainers" copying some of the methods they have heard about the BNT's using , whether or not they have a clue of what their doing or not. which often times produces tragic results.
    It's just very sad that this is happening in the pony ring all in the name of trying to make ponies safe for kids that probably shouldn't be competeing at levels they are put in.
    You got it, Mike.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2002
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    Former Long Islander now in the middle of the Great Lakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by fair judy View Post
    those three letters used to describe trainers mean next to nothing anymore. it is rather like the new clothing sizes.... 5/7/9 used to be small. now we have size 0, it is the SAME size that 5 used to be but people feel better about themselves to be a smaller size.

    i always had several well qualified student to take to the finals. i never took them by myself not because i wasn't qualified but because of the clout. that is just a fact.

    one of them jugged a lame horse with DMSO all night before the finals. that was it for me. the entire aisle stunk of it and there were horses strung up on jugs all through the barns. you are all kidding yourselves if you do not think this is an EPIDEMIC in the industry.

    Thank you Fair Judy, there are some Horrible things that are done to horses in the name of winning ,it's not just rampant in Hunter Jumper world either , there was always an element back in the old days but now it really is the norm.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2005
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    Chicago. Again.
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    2,445

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    There is a great deal of truth in the tales of Mike & FairJudy, it is downright depressing at times. But there IS a solid contingent of good guys too, often drifting just below the "BNT" surface. You won't see their names in The Chronicle very often - and that is such a shame - but they are out there being the other 85% of the hard-working horse-showing public.

    The vast majority of equitation riders in this country will never see the 2nd round of Medal Finals, and the majority will never see the inside of Harrisburg at all. This sport is a little hyper-focused on the top 2-3%, who just happen to be the same people over and over, and the extent that crew has gone to one-up each other is fairly epic. But there is a much larger segment of the industry that really doesn't get a lot of attention (you know, the other 30 people in the class at WEF that weren't 1st, 2nd or 3rd). There are A LOT of good eggs in this group, we just don't hear a whole lot about them, and they are far less pressured to go to extremes (I mean, if you know you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, is it really worth it to risk it?). So it does beg the question, is drugging more common at a certain level, or do we just hear about it because of the prestige of that level?
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
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    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2008
    Location
    missouri
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    Dags I was one of those 85%. solid background in the days when those letters actually meant something.... rode with/worked for the cream of the crop. some drugged, some didn't. lets not forget the days when grooms used to put braiding rubber bands on the geldings to keep them from swinging in the breeze, and when a single syringe filled with ACE went down the aisle hitting everyone in the muscle.

    Those days ended while i was lucky enough to be doing road work for melanie smith. while everyone else was scrambling to figure out how to keep their horses quiet, Melanie had the firm background of TRAINING under her belt. it was no secret back then that She was so strongly emergent precisely because of her ethics, not in spite of them.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #312
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    Sep. 12, 2007
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    262

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    That's nice but there aren't many Melanie Smiths left in this circuit now for sure. Lots who give speeches about horsemanship and write articles about it and they abuse horses and cheat precisely because everyone thinks they are such good horsemen, and they know they can get away with it.



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