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  1. #121
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    She understood that DEFHR was co-ordinating a program and yes..it was Last Chance was LOOKING for donations to also use in their money raising program. She stated if they gelded them she would also keep them on her property at her expense and they could adopt them out from her farm so it would not cost them any money out of pocket.
    And in the end how many did Last Chance adopt out, how much money did Last Chance actually raise?

    She may have sold 15, but she still had over 130 as I remember.
    That is more than most women of her age can manage to care for alone, or with the help of one other person.
    And of those 130 most were overdue for hoof care, dental care, and worming and some young ones were obviously not handled [much].


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #122
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    She made mistakes. She had imported a very very expensive stallion on a lease from Poland and she had orders for over 40 fillies. What are the odds that a person would breed around 50 mares and have 44 colts?

    The numbers however also included ALL of the senior horses and I have gone on record saying she should have killed them all the minute they started to fail. The heck with bright eyes, flagging tails...she had put down 6 or 7 the fall before this all happened as she said she saw the loss of "Arabitis" in their eyes and movement and did not want them to suffer another winter. She did say all of the others were happy, great appetites and loved to flag their tails and bound around the field.s

    None were given to any program as she was "raided" and put on a compliance order for 30 days. She had completed about 80 % of the order when they cancelled it 15 days early.

    They seized the horses and shock of all shocks...some "shipped" to texas are barely halter trained and the rescues have had them for two years. So much for them condemning a breeder and then really not doing much...but after they lost the case...I guess the incentive was gone.

    On an average Marsha would sell about 30-40 PER YEAR and at good prices. The recession destroyed that.

    During the 80's I purchased. at a small sale in Canada, a Bask daughter who had gone through a Lasma Sale and sold for 975,000$ U.S. I got her for $400.00. That was the last major recession.



  3. #123

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    So it was Last Chance Corral, not DEFHR as you originally stated? Because those are two unaffiliated organizations, as far as I know. LCC isn't even located in Maryland (they are in Ohio).
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.



  4. #124
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    Analise...there was something also with DEFHR connection as that is what got the ball rolling...other than that I don't know...nothing happened...

    Any thoughts on why DEFHR and GG and the others would not have rebuked Stacy when she wanted them to falsify the photos and weights for the horses?

    Any ethical group would have refused....but then...HSUS does promise a lot of opportunities to make big money for these rescues...sad that theses ones had no moral standard on a personal basis in order to say...we only do what is right

    Sign of the times....everyone wants something for nothing.



  5. #125

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    Do you know that they didn't? I have no idea about it as you and your 'group' are the only ones I've seen discussing this. I'd prefer to see some documentation that this actually happened before making any sort of opinion on what is basically a rumor.
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #126
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    Here's some info about one of Fairfax's "groups". People in glass houses....

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...fast-and-loose
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2007
    Posts
    9,180

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    So on that linked thread, Lauraky, is the guy who is the international investigator????? for the arab rescue referenced by Misty Blue the same guy?
    Well, I guess he has inside info on some rescue ripoffs.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2008
    Posts
    4,589

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    Yes, Leo/Fairfax is the "investigator.".
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  9. #129
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Analise...there was something also with DEFHR connection as that is what got the ball rolling...other than that I don't know...nothing happened...

    Any thoughts on why DEFHR and GG and the others would not have rebuked Stacy when she wanted them to falsify the photos and weights for the horses?

    Any ethical group would have refused....but then...HSUS does promise a lot of opportunities to make big money for these rescues...sad that theses ones had no moral standard on a personal basis in order to say...we only do what is right

    Sign of the times....everyone wants something for nothing.
    Perhaps you'd like to explain your association with ARM then. You're still listed on their website.

    I think your investigations should start with your own rescue.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2010
    Posts
    204

    Cool ?

    HI, I know where these farms are located , to be honest i look up to these farms ,
    WHY = okay = space cadet here = i use to live there = gosh i hate writing a book =
    i will keep it to the point not mad = they can have people vollunteer = typing =crap =
    so people can smell air = exercise = mental help = okay= everyone has race horses =
    they are not the draft horses = not mad here = not pointing fingers = one has them =
    one does not = understand =looking at the money going some where = i am jealous =
    1= lucky people have horses = people who had horses but for some unknown right
    now don,t = want to go off a cliff because it eats at them everyday they don,t have
    one out the back door = what am 8i saying this is to long all horse people on this
    site get the message ... thanks for this website = anywho i am exhausted writing =
    carry on cothers = just a thought i went to wellington fl . long time ago loved it ...
    wish i was there every year. have lots of money . tons of horses and forget about
    the real world
    HOOF123...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    It was listed during the Vess case.

    None of us are on any board or have any say.

    What I will say in Terry's favor. She HELPS breeders.

    She has taken horses from some dire straights and has relocated them.

    Some people hate her. Some think she is cream cheese.

    So...why would GG, DEFHR, Paradise and others NOT stand up for what is right and refuse to lie about weight scales?

    Oh...wait...it is as I have always said... FOLLOW THE MONEY

    That 1/2 million they were going to split was going to be their payoff.

    On the GG accounting I can not reconcile it. They claim they lost around 200,000$ give or take a penny or so...and yet...they only claim a loss of $25,000 on their IRS form.

    Guess they were not going to put in the amount they were originally claiming as it would be subject to an audit. Is that called FRAUD?



  12. #132

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    What IRS form is that when you've already complained that their 2011 990 isn't available yet?
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #133
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    It was listed during the Vess case.

    None of us are on any board or have any say.

    What I will say in Terry's favor. She HELPS breeders.

    She has taken horses from some dire straights and has relocated them.

    Some people hate her. Some think she is cream cheese.

    So...why would GG, DEFHR, Paradise and others NOT stand up for what is right and refuse to lie about weight scales?

    Oh...wait...it is as I have always said... FOLLOW THE MONEY

    That 1/2 million they were going to split was going to be their payoff.

    On the GG accounting I can not reconcile it. They claim they lost around 200,000$ give or take a penny or so...and yet...they only claim a loss of $25,000 on their IRS form.

    Guess they were not going to put in the amount they were originally claiming as it would be subject to an audit. Is that called FRAUD?
    No FRAUD would be ARM, you know the rescue where you are listed as the investigative officer on their website. The one that was prosecuted by NJ. That's fraud.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I spoke with him numerous occasions after Joanne called him and asked him his opinion. He because so alarmed he offered his services for free.


    VetMed...what a strange statement. His family and colleagues didn't care. That was not an issue and is only used when someone wants to try and silence someone. He had an interview with a couple of publications...Horses Illustrated was one and he did not beat around the bush.

    Too many on this forum not only saw his original report they also read the ones pertaining to Marhsa and other cases. Pretty damning when he out and out accused the woman from HSUS of a bias that would be negative as she hated breeders. I understand he did speak with her in order to check her qualifications.

    He was not about to be intimidated by HSUS nor their affiliates.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding offering his services for free (I assume regarding the case and rescue you're discussing?). I don't know much about that case except he was to testify in what I get the feeling was not a properly done investigation. I certainly would, too, if my work was being misused. I'm referring to the "Misuse of Henneke" statement, in which it says he's stating he does not want rescues to use his scale in this manner, of which he had just discussed was inaccurate to use as the only tool/diagnostic to come to a seizure decision. Very different from what you are saying it says.

    Never saw any of those articles you mention, so don't know. BUT, regardless, The "Misuse of Henneke" statement also doesn't beat around the bush. You're are taking it out of context, muddying what he was trying to say. If those articles say the same thing that statement says, you are incorrect in what he was saying.

    Again, I don't know much about this case and previous reports Henneke wrote about it, it's not in my area at all. But if he found inconsistencies or improper use of his scale in either how it was applied (as in not accurately), or if it was the only diagnostic tool used to decide seizure, I'm glad he straightened them out. But you are stretching/embellishing his "Misuse of Henneke" statement as saying he doesn't want it used at all in cruelty cases. He stated he didn't want it used in this manner... as in the only diagnostic tool, and I 100% agree.
    I would hope nobody would be intimidated by HSUS. I don't support them.
    Last edited by Equine VetMed; Jan. 25, 2013 at 10:36 PM. Reason: quote function didn't work like I thought it would.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Aug. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    He passed away in November and he was 60.

    So no answer to my question?

    I'll ask again so it's clear what I am asking:

    Did Dr Henneke...
    A] go to see and touch Marshas horse in order to determine that the Henneke scale had been mis-applied
    B] or did he determine that his scale had been mis-applied by only reviewing photos?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    He passed away in November and he was 60.

    So no answer to my question?

    I'll ask again so it's clear what I am asking:

    Did Dr Henneke...
    A] go to see and touch Marshas horse in order to determine that the Henneke scale had been mis-applied
    B] or did he determine that his scale had been mis-applied by only reviewing photos?
    Don't know why I am posting other than to address the focus on 'misapplied'.

    I am as yet unable to find the original 1983 publication of the 1979 study, but was able to find a 2006 Equus article which contains direct quotes by Henneke regarding application of his BCS scoring tool.

    excerpts (I didn't reformat the line breaks):
    A body score is useful, but Henneke
    stresses that it is just one clue to overall
    health status. “You cannot make an
    immediate judgment on a horse’s wellbeing
    or care based on BCS alone,”
    he says. Older horses, for instance,
    generally tend to have lower scores,
    even with the best of care, as do horses
    of certain breeds or occupations.
    “You have to consider the whole horse
    and his circumstances. The BCS is
    only a guideline, and I get frustrated
    when I see it being relied on as more
    than that,” he adds.
    Henneke also stresses the importance
    of feel in determining a horse’s
    BCS: “You might be able to get within a
    point or two by looks alone, but you’ve
    got to put your hands on a horse if you
    want a specific score.”

    …Finally, says Henneke, it’s important
    to understand that there is no “right”
    score. “Each
    horse has his
    own ideal condition
    for his
    breed and
    occupation.
    For
    one horse,
    that might include a
    body condition score
    of 4; for another 7 is
    the right score. You
    must consider all the
    variables and not get
    fixated on a number.
    This system is not
    going to replace
    common
    sense.”

    …says Don Henneke, PhD, who created the BCS system. “People
    will see a picture of a horse in a parched field with barbed wire
    fences and score it as a thin, underfed 3. If you put that very same
    horse in a tidy racetrack setting, however, he suddenly becomes a
    fit, moderately thin 4.”

    link
    http://d1engbabf2cb77.cloudfront.net...ugust-2006.pdf


    So reading this 2006 series of quotes from long before the referenced seizure of this COTH thread:
    ...that BCS is a tool requiring visual and hands-on; visual alone is inaccurate usually by a point
    ...that BCS alone does not determine health; metabolic analysis of blood, etc. is also necessary
    ...that an impartial practitioner and a third party opinion is a requirement, plus a trained practitioner, to get an accurate BCS
    ...that there is no one 'correct' BCS score for all horses, each must be on an individual assessment

    Misapplied is using the BCS TOOL for something it cannot do - rate health or assigning a 'value' and 'judgment' to a specific BCS score for all horses.

    Misperformed is practising doing BCS incorrectly per the procedure for doing it.

    Dr. Henneke:
    http://enidnews.com/deathnotices/x94...-Don-R-Henneke

    The study was 1979 onward and published 1983, 30 years ago.

    USE of the study has been ongoing and since about 2008, rescues have been re-copying a statement without basis of the 'meaning' of BCS and it's use in seizure.
    There has been no scientific research linked to the determination of 'correct' BCS scores stated, nor to the use without metabolic confirmation. And there has been quite a bit of 'drift' of what is acceptable in the last 5 years, also without back-up beyond re-copying to the Nth degree.

    'Common usage' does not imply correct usage, nor legal usage and certainly is not scientific.



  16. #136
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    Aug. 5, 2007
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    Found the 1984 reprint of the original Henneke study of 32 QH mares

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...93691X84903832



  17. #137
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    Jan. 8, 2013
    Posts
    342

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    I didnt have time to read all 7 pages but I have volunteered at DEFHR for years and the farm two streets over works with them by buying and training the horses. They make all of their lesson students volunteer there at least once a week. There might be hundreds of volunteers on the books but I get emails every week asking for help for more volunteers. I highly doubt horses were without water as we as volunteers must fill them several times a day and the live in interns (which get some living money) have night watch. I have seen nothing but good come from DEFHR and it seems that you have a grudge for some reason. This is the first time in the MANY years I have known DEFHR that I have heard anything remotely negative. Oh and on the horses being sent out to trainers they do come back you know. They specify which horses leave for off-site training and when they come back. I have even helped with the off-site training of one of the horses


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2010
    Posts
    204

    Question

    HI, ME again = just wondering how many cothers been there and at these farms
    finally a thread with tatooes on this town and the country singer for this song is .... keep
    horse plowing on ladies with this one ... or excuse me horsewomen or horsemen or cowgirls \
    or cowboys
    days end went into business in 1995 i think ....



  19. #139
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    43,108

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    Quote Originally Posted by wishfulthinking711 View Post
    I didnt have time to read all 7 pages but I have volunteered at DEFHR for years and the farm two streets over works with them by buying and training the horses. They make all of their lesson students volunteer there at least once a week. There might be hundreds of volunteers on the books but I get emails every week asking for help for more volunteers. I highly doubt horses were without water as we as volunteers must fill them several times a day and the live in interns (which get some living money) have night watch. I have seen nothing but good come from DEFHR and it seems that you have a grudge for some reason. This is the first time in the MANY years I have known DEFHR that I have heard anything remotely negative. Oh and on the horses being sent out to trainers they do come back you know. They specify which horses leave for off-site training and when they come back. I have even helped with the off-site training of one of the horses
    Groups as those evolve over time, do some thing right or they would fold, do some questionable things and here, it seems, we are talking about those possibly questionable things they may be doing lately.

    How much of that is maybe not quite so, what is really not up to par, that is what is being discussed here.

    I know that, if the HSUS is involved in any way, from what the HSUS involvement with some other such organizations I know, there is a good cause to question what those groups do and why, especially if there is ongoing HSUS involvement.

    Don't forget, HSUS is working with any animal welfare issues as a side line, a foot in the door to eventually eliminate all uses of animals by humans by causing havoc in all we do with them.
    The HSUS is not there to help animals AS WE USE them, but to help ELIMINATE our uses of animals, eventually.
    That is their ultimate goal, one battle at the time.

    Anyone that allies themselves with them is already suspect as either don't know any better or are being mercenary for their short term goals, by working with the enemy of anyone that has and uses animals.

    Even if we leave the HSUS out of this, I think asking questions about how and why any organization, especially non-profit ones work is important to keep them honest, too easy to cut corners to outright misuse any of them.

    I think that is what is being done here, questions are being asked.



  20. #140
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    Aug. 1, 2002
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    Georgia
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    You know, I have read most of this thread, and have come to the conclusion that it clearly takes more then coffee to make any sort of sense from some of these posts....


    1 members found this post helpful.

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