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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2011
    Posts
    2,898

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    I am still looking for the Shetland link....a reader thinks she has it. Not that it is even important but again...you need that red herring

    Analise denied any inside involvement for months. I guess anyone can state I AM NOT INVOLVED WITH THOSE PEOPLE

    Clip and paste...if I didn't you would have accused me of writing my own story.

    I will continue to state more information as it becomes available in 2013.

    Since you got the study wrong...what else have you made mistakes on?

    What is your stand on the lies by HSUS, Equiery and DEFHR?



  2. #82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    VILE is all I can say. Along with the vicious volunteers at G.G.. Rude, Foul language when even your "leader" stated Mrs. Parkinson was a kind lady even under these conditions. I would still like to be able to identify the young lady (I am kind) who spit on Mrs. Parkinson when she approached the mare the girl was holding onto THAT BELONGED TO MRS PARKINSON

    Analise...you also stated repeatedly that you were ONLY a volunteer until you had to come clean and identify yourself as the PR mouthpiece of GG and that you also lived out of state and hadn't even been involved other than on a minimal scale.

    The Queen was not amused and neither was the Queen Anne County Court Judge.
    When did this spitting happen? I have never heard of that before now.

    And yes. I was ONLY a volunteer for three years at Gentle Giants, from around summer 2008 through summer 2011. Part of what I did as a volunteer was post updates about horses at Gentle Giants in various forums (I posted here and on ABR mostly. I also let Christine know I was posting on the Arabian breeders forum where a lot of discussion about the Parkinson case was happening, though she did not ask me to post there. I believe I have also posted on HGS regarding GG and the Fugly "Free Speech" forum as well as the Gentle Giants facebook page. It's possible I am forgetting a forum here or there, but those would all be the main ones.) PR mouthpiece is being generous but I suppose what I have done could be construed in that fashion.

    At the time of the Parkinson seizure, I was out of state for a month in Georgia. I came back for a couple of months to Maryland and saw the Arabians that were in Gentle Giants' custody with my own eyes. I believe some of the pictures I took of them have been posted in various places on the web, I can dig up links if you like. In June of 2011, I moved to Georgia and have lived here ever since though I have returned to Maryland a couple of times to visit (most notably, if you must know, in January of last year during the Maryland Horse Expo, in fall of 2011 for the Maryland Renaissance Festival, on Labor Day weekend last year for the Maryland Renaissance Festival (also visited Gentle Giants' new farm at that time) and I believe that's it).

    This is what I have maintained for the last couple of years.

    I don't know what Queen you are referring to so I'm going to assume that's either supposed to be sort of tongue-in-cheek to lead into the Queen Anne County Court Judge (though I don't know why they would care as I have always strived to only post what I believed to be true and/or mark clearly that I was stating an opinion). Or you're referring to Marsha Parkinson as the Queen and again...I don't know why she'd care.
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2007
    Location
    Maryland USA
    Posts
    1,470

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am still looking for the Shetland link...
    You make a wild claim, I ask for evidence, again you have none.

    Let's try a few more of your claims. Do you have evidence for any of this, or does it all come to you in dreams?

    1:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax
    He took the Henneke weight score which was ONLY developed for Quarter Horse breeding mares to determine the ideal weight for BREEDING and he used this study to make his own evaluation as to equine weight abuse.
    I presume by "he" you mean the three authors of the Californian booklet. Have you got the abstract from that original paper or thesis that says it was only about breeding?

    2:
    You claimed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax
    They were required to remove the Henneke score after the late Dr. Don Henneke who developed the score refuted not only their use but their interpretation.
    Who required them to? By what method were the required? When by? It's still there starting on page 17 http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/do...ndardsMOD2.pdf
    I don't suppose you have any evidence for this required removal?

    3:
    You claimed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax
    They are involved with HSUS and jointly sponsor MANY initiatives.
    "Many" you say? Name 3 initiatives they have jointly sponsored.

    4:
    For bonus points seeing as it was your opening claim:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax
    Kathleen Howe now receives $82,000 in compensation
    That number is not broken out in their 990 or their audited financials. Have any evidence?

    You'll need to be more specific with your question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    What is your stand on the lies by HSUS, Equiery and DEFHR?
    I've not read anything by HSUS or DEFHR so I would not have a stand, or be aware of any lies.
    I read The Equiery fairly often, but if there is something specific you're calling out as a lie, I'm interested, but again I'll ask to see evidence that it's a lie.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Sep. 30, 2010
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    318

    Default

    Holy drama, and for what?


    7 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2011
    Posts
    2,898

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    Tangle...This is silly and is taking away from the original point. They have a lucrative deal going at tax payer expense.

    Check for yourself here on COTH regarding the Heneke Scale. I am not going to cover it again. It has been done and the letter was posted in Horseman Illustrated and other professional publications letting rescues know they were NOT to use his scale for their purpose.

    When a website is revised that is exactly what happens. This change or disappear.

    You can have as much fun as you want. For those who are serious horsemen/women, they will understand the meaning behind the minimal care standards and the reason the California Horse owners counsel along with many others disputed it. Also they understand why it was challenged by Parisio.

    Joint ventures...clinic in Finnland, Haiti and California for law enforcement and AC.

    I guess the fact you do not know about the Hen scale and the direct quotes from the Dr. on this forum and many others where it was discussed truly points out you are not a player...just having some fun.... Many of the senior posters here know he disputed UD of D and the fact they are keeping it up is of no relevance. The precedent was set with the trial of Canterbury where the Dr. stated very clearly it was developed for Quarter horses and only used 21 as his test study. He also refuted the assessment of the canterbury horses using that scale.

    I located a copy of it on Speak Easy for your benefit:

    (MIS)USE OF THE BCS IN ALLEGED NEGLECT
    Over the past year, cases of alleged horse neglect have skyrocketed across the United States. I have been contacted by people from California to Maryland, from Minnesota to Texas, and from New York to Arizona. This phenomenon has reached epidemic proportions. Minnesota alone reportedly investigated almost 400 cases in 2011. Most of these can be attributed to the down economy and the drought making it difficult for horse owners to feed their horses like they would like to feed them. Therefore, we are seeing a lot more horses in below average body condition. That does not make every thin horse a neglected or abused horse.
    Over the past decade, the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses (BCS) has become, in many if not most cases, the sole reason for seizure for neglect or abuse. The problem with this is that the BCS was not designed to reflect the health or well-being of the horse. The BCS provides an estimate of stored body fat, period. From a physiological standpoint, as long as a horse has any fat reserves and is receiving a diet that meets its daily maintenance requirements, that horse can be healthy.
    For example, The Minimum Standards of Horse Care in the State of California (2011) arbitrarily indicates that any horse with a BCS of less than 3 does not meet the minimum standard. By definition, a BCS 3 horse still has reserves of body fat. Once a horse gets below a BCS 3, then reserves are low. However, the health of the horse is only in jeopardy if it is breaking down non-fat tissue to provide for its basic energy needs. The BCS cannot measure this function.
    Breakdown of non-adipose tissue for energy can be evaluated through blood analysis focusing on liver and kidney function, and the breakdown of structural tissue for energy. Blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, and the ratio of blood urea nitrogen level to creatinine level are indicators of tissue breakdown. Analysis for hematocrit, serum concentrations of total protein solids, sodium, calcium, potassium, triglycerides, bilirubin, and albumin will also provide information concerning malnutrition and starvation. None of these tests are accurate on their own. However, evaluation of matching trends from the analysis can help confirm or disprove that the horse is nutritionally deprived.
    In addition, the presence, or absence, of other physical indicators of inadequate energy intake should be used to evaluate alleged neglect. Energy deprived horses will be lethargic. Their reaction to stimuli will be depressed. They will usually show signs of dehydration: tacky gums, “tenting” of skin on the neck, concentrated urine with a very strong odor, and decreased fecal output. Coprophagy, the consumption of feces, is usually very pronounced in energy deprived horses, especially those kept in groups. Since energy deprivation is usually accompanied by protein deficits, the hair coat will dull and shaggy. It is imperative that a low BCS score be supported by other clinical signs of starvation to indicate nutritional neglect.
    The presence, or absence, of feed and hay on the premises is an excellent indicator of the ability of the owner to meet the nutritional needs of their horses. If adequate feed and hay is present to meet the needs of the animals, then seizure is not warranted. Few, if any, horse owners will refuse to feed their horses if feed is available.
    Adding to the problem is that many “evaluators” have not received any formal training in the application of the BCS. They do not understand the physiology of fat deposition and utilization, they are not knowledgeable in conformation and breed characteristics that will influence the BCS, and most often they have personal biases that lower their estimate. The BCS is designed as a ranking system. It was never designed to be exact and it cannot be exact because of differences in breeds, size, age, and conformation between horses. It is a guideline. If the average lay horse owner gets within 1 body condition score, plus or minus, of the horses actual condition, they are doing a good job. Seizing a horse based solely on an untrained person’s estimated BCS is a very questionable practice.
    I find it very disturbing that humane societies and local authorities have utilized the BCS in such a manner. There are definitely cases of neglect and abuse that need to be dealt with in a quick and decisive manner. However, care must be taken to be sure that the animals are truly being starved and that requires supporting evidence from their other physical parameters and blood analysis. My recommendation to all parties is that if neglect or abuse due to nutrition deprivation is suspected,
    1. The evaluator must exhibit the ability to offer a trained, unbiased opinion based solely on the stored body fat of the animal. If seizure is to be considered, the evaluation of the animals by a qualified, impartial third person should be required.
    2. A BCS of less than 3 is not cause for automatic seizure. The animals in question must exhibit altered metabolism confirmed by blood analysis or other physical signs consistent with malnutrition before they can be seized for inadequate body condition. If it is determined that the horse needs immediate attention, a veterinarian of the owner’s choosing should provide those supporting procedures. These procedures may be done with supervision by the legal authorities.
    3. Only horses exhibiting altered metabolism and having inadequate feed stores on the premises should be seized. Removing healthy horses from their home is not necessary and may often result in adverse consequences due to stress created by a new environment and untrained handlers.
    4. If at all possible, the alleged neglected horses should remain at the owner’s farm. Removing any horse from its familiar environment, drastically changing its diet, and exposing it to a new set of handlers will usually result in stress and a further loss of body condition. In the vast majority of cases, if the intent is truly the best care of the horse, that care can best be administered in familiar surroundings. If the legal authorities require, care can be conducted under their official guidance.
    “Innocent until proven guilty” is the most abused legal standard in America today. Due to biased press coverage, most “trials” are conducted before the accused ever has a chance to answer the charges. Once a horse owner has been accused of neglect, they are stained for life. If they are later proven to be innocent, the public has already painted them with a negative picture. This should not happen. It is imperative that the state authorities demonstrate adequate cause for seizure. Unsupported claims of neglect against a horse owner should be followed by a vigorous public campaign by the state authorities criticizing the parties who have filed a frivolous claim and, if possible, such parties should be prosecuted by the state.
    Author’s Information:
    Don Henneke, Ph.D., is currently the Director of Equine Science at Tarleton State University, Stephenville, TX. Dr. Henneke was the principal investigator in developing the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses at Texas A&M University in 1979.

    This was his letter and he was prepared to be an expert witness for Canterbury. The initial study clearly states the Quarter Horses and the scale development. I believe it is on line and easily available.

    A precident has now been set and other courts will be able to use it and the statement of the late Doctor in defence for those charged.

    Rather than provide you with any additional infromation there is a lot already available on this forum and many others. I would suggest you refer to them

    When additional information becomes available i.e. taxation or cases in trial I will report on them.



  6. #86
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2001
    Location
    Almost Aiken
    Posts
    2,631


    9 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2007
    Location
    Maryland USA
    Posts
    1,470

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    I've been ignoring your crazy stories about a grand conspiracy where DEFHR is somehow running animal control in California because that sort of stuff is too hard to prove or disprove. I asked you 6 small questions that would be easy to prove if they were true. I got 0 for 6 answers. Welcome to my nutter file.

    I don't get why everything has to be a conspiracy with you people. Why do you have to waste your time defaming somebody who is doing good for horses. Why can't you stick to UFOs and moon landings? That way you don't do any real harm, or offend many people and Buzz Aldrin seems pretty capable of looking after himself.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    9,424

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Buzz Aldrin seems pretty capable of looking after himself.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2001
    Location
    Packing my bags
    Posts
    31,002

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    I've been ignoring your crazy stories about a grand conspiracy where DEFHR is somehow running animal control in California because that sort of stuff is too hard to prove or disprove. I asked you 6 small questions that would be easy to prove if they were true. I got 0 for 6 answers. Welcome to my nutter file.

    I don't get why everything has to be a conspiracy with you people. Why do you have to waste your time defaming somebody who is doing good for horses. Why can't you stick to UFOs and moon landings? That way you don't do any real harm, or offend many people and Buzz Aldrin seems pretty capable of looking after himself.
    well.
    DEFHR did have some deal going with HSUS.
    Now. When I read that, I felt initially sorry for them. the HSUS is not known for doing work, boots on the ground, not for giving money without plenty returns.
    But as it seemed to shape up, there was no backlash for the group.
    And I am not so naive to assume they just got lucky.
    And yes, thank you very much, my tinfoil hat fits just fine. I will refer to you Bluey on the matter, she keeps better track of their doings than I, but all in all, the HSUS is now the better dressed arm of PETA. The personal has been trained and indoctrinated by PETA, many have directly moved from PETA into position. That is all easily available with a short glance at google. And yes, I do believe that any organization with that much money could have untrue content removed. On those grounds alone I wuld not touch DEFHR with a ten foot pole anymore. The company you keep and all.....(I am not about to do business with one of the local shelters anymore either, since they are peddling HSUS material on their website)

    The infamous scale. Just search COTH a bit for it, we did have a heated discussion over it not too long ago, the good doctor (did he since pass?) was making active waves against it being used as (sole) tool to determine status on assumed neglect victims. but it also has become the norm that people consider anything below a 6 or 7 to be malnourished. fat epidemic be damned.

    Like I said, the premise the brought Fairfax here, I don't agree with. And maybe he is on the nutty side. But he has more than one good point.

    of course, since he got on COTHs bad side.....all he says is being dismissed.

    Now, he did present you with a lot of material, links, too I guess. And if you were inclined to disproof his stand, you could find some of the material yourself. Your google works the same his does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    16,945

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    I don't get why everything has to be a conspiracy with you people. Why do you have to waste your time defaming somebody who is doing good for horses. Why can't you stick to UFOs and moon landings? That way you don't do any real harm, or offend many people and Buzz Aldrin seems pretty capable of looking after himself.


    The posts do have that conspiracy theorist, nutter appearance to them, don't they?
    Last edited by LauraKY; Jan. 25, 2013 at 10:25 AM.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    6,153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post

    I located a copy of it on Speak Easy for your benefit:

    (MIS)USE OF THE BCS IN ALLEGED NEGLECT
    Over the past year, cases of alleged horse neglect have skyrocketed across the United States. I have been contacted by people from California to Maryland, from Minnesota to Texas, and from New York to Arizona. This phenomenon has reached epidemic proportions. Minnesota alone reportedly investigated almost 400 cases in 2011. Most of these can be attributed to the down economy and the drought making it difficult for horse owners to feed their horses like they would like to feed them. Therefore, we are seeing a lot more horses in below average body condition. That does not make every thin horse a neglected or abused horse.

    Over the past decade, the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses (BCS) has become, in many if not most cases, the sole reason for seizure for neglect or abuse. The problem with this is that the BCS was not designed to reflect the health or well-being of the horse. The BCS provides an estimate of stored body fat, period. From a physiological standpoint, as long as a horse has any fat reserves and is receiving a diet that meets its daily maintenance requirements, that horse can be healthy.

    For example, The Minimum Standards of Horse Care in the State of California (2011) arbitrarily indicates that any horse with a BCS of less than 3 does not meet the minimum standard. By definition, a BCS 3 horse still has reserves of body fat. Once a horse gets below a BCS 3, then reserves are low. However, the health of the horse is only in jeopardy if it is breaking down non-fat tissue to provide for its basic energy needs. The BCS cannot measure this function.

    Breakdown of non-adipose tissue for energy can be evaluated through blood analysis focusing on liver and kidney function, and the breakdown of structural tissue for energy. Blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, and the ratio of blood urea nitrogen level to creatinine level are indicators of tissue breakdown. Analysis for hematocrit, serum concentrations of total protein solids, sodium, calcium, potassium, triglycerides, bilirubin, and albumin will also provide information concerning malnutrition and starvation. None of these tests are accurate on their own. However, evaluation of matching trends from the analysis can help confirm or disprove that the horse is nutritionally deprived.

    In addition, the presence, or absence, of other physical indicators of inadequate energy intake should be used to evaluate alleged neglect. Energy deprived horses will be lethargic. Their reaction to stimuli will be depressed. They will usually show signs of dehydration: tacky gums, “tenting” of skin on the neck, concentrated urine with a very strong odor, and decreased fecal output. Coprophagy, the consumption of feces, is usually very pronounced in energy deprived horses, especially those kept in groups. Since energy deprivation is usually accompanied by protein deficits, the hair coat will dull and shaggy. It is imperative that a low BCS score be supported by other clinical signs of starvation to indicate nutritional neglect.

    The presence, or absence, of feed and hay on the premises is an excellent indicator of the ability of the owner to meet the nutritional needs of their horses. If adequate feed and hay is present to meet the needs of the animals, then seizure is not warranted. Few, if any, horse owners will refuse to feed their horses if feed is available.

    Adding to the problem is that many “evaluators” have not received any formal training in the application of the BCS. They do not understand the physiology of fat deposition and utilization, they are not knowledgeable in conformation and breed characteristics that will influence the BCS, and most often they have personal biases that lower their estimate. The BCS is designed as a ranking system. It was never designed to be exact and it cannot be exact because of differences in breeds, size, age, and conformation between horses. It is a guideline. If the average lay horse owner gets within 1 body condition score, plus or minus, of the horses actual condition, they are doing a good job. Seizing a horse based solely on an untrained person’s estimated BCS is a very questionable practice.

    I find it very disturbing that humane societies and local authorities have utilized the BCS in such a manner. There are definitely cases of neglect and abuse that need to be dealt with in a quick and decisive manner. However, care must be taken to be sure that the animals are truly being starved and that requires supporting evidence from their other physical parameters and blood analysis. My recommendation to all parties is that if neglect or abuse due to nutrition deprivation is suspected,

    1. The evaluator must exhibit the ability to offer a trained, unbiased opinion based solely on the stored body fat of the animal. If seizure is to be considered, the evaluation of the animals by a qualified, impartial third person should be required.

    2. A BCS of less than 3 is not cause for automatic seizure. The animals in question must exhibit altered metabolism confirmed by blood analysis or other physical signs consistent with malnutrition before they can be seized for inadequate body condition. If it is determined that the horse needs immediate attention, a veterinarian of the owner’s choosing should provide those supporting procedures. These procedures may be done with supervision by the legal authorities.

    3. Only horses exhibiting altered metabolism and having inadequate feed stores on the premises should be seized. Removing healthy horses from their home is not necessary and may often result in adverse consequences due to stress created by a new environment and untrained handlers.

    4. If at all possible, the alleged neglected horses should remain at the owner’s farm. Removing any horse from its familiar environment, drastically changing its diet, and exposing it to a new set of handlers will usually result in stress and a further loss of body condition. In the vast majority of cases, if the intent is truly the best care of the horse, that care can best be administered in familiar surroundings. If the legal authorities require, care can be conducted under their official guidance.

    “Innocent until proven guilty” is the most abused legal standard in America today. Due to biased press coverage, most “trials” are conducted before the accused ever has a chance to answer the charges. Once a horse owner has been accused of neglect, they are stained for life. If they are later proven to be innocent, the public has already painted them with a negative picture. This should not happen. It is imperative that the state authorities demonstrate adequate cause for seizure. Unsupported claims of neglect against a horse owner should be followed by a vigorous public campaign by the state authorities criticizing the parties who have filed a frivolous claim and, if possible, such parties should be prosecuted by the state.

    Author’s Information:
    Don Henneke, Ph.D., is currently the Director of Equine Science at Tarleton State University, Stephenville, TX. Dr. Henneke was the principal investigator in developing the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses at Texas A&M University in 1979.


    This was his letter and he was prepared to be an expert witness for Canterbury. The initial study clearly states the Quarter Horses and the scale development. I believe it is on line and easily available.
    As I've written before, while Dr Henneke had a credentialed background in horse breeding and nutrition, his knowledge of horse rescue and neglect is not very impressive. For one to write the following shows how little he knows about those who neglect their horses:

    The presence, or absence, of feed and hay on the premises is an excellent indicator of the ability of the owner to meet the nutritional needs of their horses. If adequate feed and hay is present to meet the needs of the animals, then seizure is not warranted. Few, if any, horse owners will refuse to feed their horses if feed is available.

    Did Dr Henneke go to Marshas farm and see those horses and the conditions firsthand, or did he go to DEF and view the animals first hand? How is it he is able to claim that the BCS was improperly applied if he never saw in person and palpated the horses himself to confirm that BCS was/was not applied appropriately, since the actual directions for doing a BCS states that visual AND palpation of the animal is necessary?

    Then there's this:
    4. If at all possible, the alleged neglected horses should remain at the owner’s farm. Removing any horse from its familiar environment, drastically changing its diet, and exposing it to a new set of handlers will usually result in stress and a further loss of body condition.
    I guess he doesn't believe in taking horses to shows, fairs, or other events?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2006
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    VA
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    815

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    Quote Originally Posted by saje View Post
    We need one of those smileys!
    Railgirl.blogspot.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2011
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    Dr. Henneke did pass away last June (I think that was the correct month) He was around 59 and it was truly unexpected.

    After he saw the pictures with the notes from Stacey of HSUS telling the rescues to downgrade the weights on ALL of the horses (Defhr, Paradise and a couple of others --GG and two more I can't remember) he decided he could not just stand by.

    The fact the horses were chased for over two hours, media etc involved, and food and water with held for up to 24 hours while they started to document and photograph (as per the notes accidently included ) he became concerned.

    The HSUS rep actually had the adacity to challenged his interpretation of the scale over HER interpretation. She lost

    He offered to go to any of the rescues at his own cost and give his opinion on any and all of them. They (DEFHR, HSUS and GG) circled the wagons and stated he could not be trusted and accused him of receiving money secretly from Marsha.

    The seizure has been discussed over and over but it was the lies and falsifying of information that is of major concern.

    The New Hampshire case clearly demonstrates that AC are encourged by HSUS and DEFHR who put on the seminars to out and out lie.

    During the first inspection of the Cnterbury horses after they were returned the HSUS rep did his walk about. Marsha and a lady who resides there were with him alone with another gentleman. The HSUS rep stated he was very satisfied with everything he saw...he did complain that the fences could all use a pretty coat of white paint and he went back to his office to write his report.

    It was a scathing report over 6 pages of everthing he claimed he discovered and also the fact he had told Marsha at the time her facilities were not up to standard.

    The rep did not know that the man in jeans was a lawyer from her team who was also recording everything the HSUS said.

    They took this to the D.A. and a copy was given to the court case judge.

    This is similar to the New Jersey case. The AC out and out lied however she too is caught..and in court the Vet and Farrier will support that.

    What is amazing about the New Jersey case is the following fact. The AC asked if they had "enough money" to support the 11 horses they had (many seniors). She made a comment that they had a mortgage etc and seemed to know a lot about them. Upon checking with the credit bureaus that do reporting they would confirm a check had been done but they would not confirm as to who the exact agency was that requested it. Let me just say...it did not show a major sale of property in a high priced area equivalent to Martha's Vineyard so the AC assumed they were just "normal folks" like the rest of us.

    CONSPIRACY.....here we go...Alagirl..I am sure I am crazy as I continue to follow these cases...The county has, on numerous occasions attempted to purchase or acquire the New Jersy property and convert it to a land fill. There is a record of that. The complaint was filed by person unknown, with the animal rights lawyer who now claims client lawyer priviledge.

    Here is a note from the person (not charged) but terrorized by this:


    Leo,

    As you may recall, the animal rights attorney who filed a complaint on me is the chair of the New Hampshire Governor's Commission on the Humane Treatment of Animals. HSUS is also on this board.

    They have a new strategy on criminalizing the ownership of animals in this state which involves underground law.

    They have created a pamphlet on proper horse care for A.C. officers to distribute so that if the owner is subsequently charged with neglect it will be considered a felony rather than a misdemeanor. The pamphlet contains requirements that were never enacted by the legislature and changes the law significantly.

    For example, 435:13 states that "all horses shall have available a sufficient quantity of fresh water to maintain hydration." The pamphlet to be distributed to horse owners states "Fresh, clean, potable water should be available at all times."



    The following is the article this man gave to Modern Arabian and they printed. Three weeks later he had his farm raided...








    Knock, Knock, It’s Animal Control.


    There are a few things you should know about when an Animal Control Officer or a civilian investigator knocks on your door. A clear understanding of what their job is and how they go about it can save your animals life as well as keep you out of a form legal jeopardy you could hardly imagine.
    Yeah, that sounds like crazy talk. We all respect the law, and God knows we love our animals. And the only reason that the nice young woman from the rescue organization could be knocking on your door is that some uneducated person must have been driving by the farm and saw that sweet old thin mare that has been enjoying her remaining years out in the pasture.
    The best thing to do, it seems, is to do the polite thing and explain that the old girl is a part of the family and well taken care of. After all, you have taken care of horses for years. You know a great deal about them. And who knows more about what your mare needs than you, the person who has catered to her in her dotage.
    Well, how you handle those benign questions from the investigator may very well determine whether or not your mare is euthanized and you spend the next few years in court. Couldn’t happen? Yes, it does and far more often than you think.
    The person who is knocking on your door is an investigator. She is not there to let you know about a nuisance complaint. She could have done that over the phone. She is at your farm to collect evidence, to observe things, to document, to ask you questions about the health history and care of your horses.
    Since you know you have done nothing wrong, what could be the harm in resolving the matter without a lot of hassle by answering all her questions and giving her a quick tour of the farm explaining all the efforts you have made to care for each and every one of your beautiful Arabians, not to mention that fat “barn” cat who now sleeps on your pillow and seldom leaves the house? Short answer: everything you say is going to be carefully examined in and out of context and potentially turned over to a prosecutor.
    The nice person who knocked on your door may be friendly, but she is not your friend. A standard part of investigator training involves how to befriend the subject of the investigation by empathizing with the owner and minimizing the importance of the legal issue at question. We love horses. We are proud of them and proud of the efforts we have made to care for them. It’s only natural to want to share that with a friendly stranger, but what seems natural may not be in your horse’s best interest.
    You might also be under the impression that the investigator received a complaint and decided to take a ride out to you farm just to ask you “What’s up?”
    Investigators, even non-law enforcement investigators, are trained to do background research first. They want to make the most out of their interview with you. They have likely driven by your farm. In many states investigators can enter any open land, pastures, and fields without ever letting you know. They have likely asked the person who filed a complaint for as much detail as possible including the names of other people who might also feel that you are doing something wrong with your animals. Of course, you have nothing to worry about since you are on the up and up and only a kook or someone with a grudge would say that you were not providing the best care possible for your animals.
    If someone’s been telling stories about you and mischaracterizing the care you give to your horses, the best thing to do is find out what’s being said and clear up the issue right? The only problem is that the investigator has been trained not to tell you the truth or only tell you enough information to get your statements on the record.
    So the investigator wants to see that precious grand dame of a mare out in your pasture. She loves horses and tells you how people just don’t understand it when animals get old.
    While chit-chatting about the mare, you tell her you almost decided to put the mare down a couple years back when she was a bit weary looking and lethargic. The investigator asks if you called the vet, and you tell her thankfully you waited. Your mare regained her spark, and it would have been a shame to put her down just yet. The investigator has been trained not to take notes in front of you because it might make you reluctant to speak. She’ll write it down after she leaves your farm. It could be the start of a real problem for you and your horse if she documents that your horse was sick and you failed to call the vet. She is also going to write that she saw dirt in your water bucket.
    The investigator loves your mare and listens intently about the story of the time she collected a big red ribbon and immediately turned to take her victory lap. The investigator runs her hand down the mare’s side with an affectionate stroke. She’s trying to assign a score for your mare on what is known as the Henneke Body Scale. The number she assigns and how it is used is going to be of great consequence to you and your mare.
    The Henneke body condition scoring system is a scale used to assign a numerical value to describe the amount of fatty tissue in a horse’s body. It was developed to identify the optimum range for successful breeding. But that’s not how it’s commonly used by law enforcement and the courts. The scale has become one of the central factors in determining whether or not a horse has been neglected. It is perhaps the most mis-used and mis-understood components of equine neglect investigations. A score of one, two, or three on the nine point scale could send you off to court.
    The problem is that the scale quantifies fat and not the quality of care an animal is receiving. Dr. Henneke, creator of the scale and a veterinarian and professor at Texas A & M, has objected that the body score is not designed to indicate the health or well-being of a horse. The scale cannot be used to either confirm or disprove nutritional deprivation. In fact, a simple numerical value cannot shed any light on why a horse has a given amount of flesh. There are a great many reasons why your elder mare may appear thin. And minimal body fat is not necessarily unhealthy. But the number the investigator assigns, perhaps coupled with the fact that she noticed a rail down on the far side of your pasture, could very well be enough for the civilian investigator to get a warrant to search your entire farm.
    When the investigator returns she may be accompanied by a law enforcement officer or a veterinarian. Both of them will have been selected because of their willingness to work on animal welfare cases and testify at any resulting trial. A warrant will permit the investigator to search anywhere an animal might be housed on your property. They will photograph your feed bins, grain scoops, hay, stalls, cobwebs, manure pile, and water buckets, as well as all of your horses, from many different angles. They will also take video, usually with the sound turned off to prevent a judge or jury from hearing any callous comments they might make while conducting their search.
    And what about your sweet old mare? She’s been having a lot more good days than bad days, but there are some days when she looks, well, sad. In the midst of all the commotion, while you have been instructed to keep out of the way and not to interfere under penalty of arrest, you may be asked what you plan to do with the old girl. It might be easier if you voluntarily surrender her. The officer doesn’t know a lot about horses but has been told that there are issues of concern. The state attorney will have to carefully review all the evidence. A trial will cost you upwards of $20,000. And there’s a vet on hand to do “the right thing.” Of course, disposal of the body will be at your expense and will not be permitted until after the investigators take a few pictures for additional documentation.
    How confident are you that you would make the best decision for your horse – whatever that may be – under such circumstances?
    Here’s a little advice for when you hear that friendly knock on the door. Don’t answer questions. Ask them. You are not obligated to say a single thing to an animal control officer or civilian investigator. What you should be doing is asking questions about what the concern is. Don’t trade questions and answers in the manner of a polite conversation where each person exchanges information. You need to find out exactly why the investigator is at your door. But keep in mind they are not obligated to tell you the truth, and they are trained not to.
    Don’t give permission for an investigator to enter your property. In fact, you must make it absolutely clear that they are not permitted to go anywhere on your land. Contact your local police authority to let them know you are concerned about the individual trespassing. This will create an official record that can later be used to your advantage should the need arise.
    Tell the investigator that you would be happy to address her concerns at her office. First, you will need her to provide you with a comprehensive explanation of the complaint so that you can call a vet of your choosing to evaluate any health concerns. Be candid with your veterinarian. Address health concerns where they exist and have your vet put it in writing if there are none.
    And finally, don’t speak with the investigator again until you have spoken with a lawyer.
    It might seem rude and out of character to be so firm when a friendly investigator knocks on your door, but it’s a whole lot better than passing by an empty stall when the needn’t be one.



    You be the judge.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Dr. Henneke did pass away last June (I think that was the correct month) He was around 59 and it was truly unexpected.
    He passed away in November and he was 60.

    So no answer to my question?

    I'll ask again so it's clear what I am asking:

    Did Dr Henneke...
    A] go to see and touch Marshas horse in order to determine that the Henneke scale had been mis-applied
    B] or did he determine that his scale had been mis-applied by only reviewing photos?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    I do not recall him going to the farm.

    I also remember the HSUS DEFHR group were asking the courts to make a judgement based on their photographs and assessment and not the actual horses. Only one individual had received any training and she was the one mentioned by Dr. Henneke a giving a tainted appraisal due to her expressed contempt for ALL horse breeders and she was the HSUS rep who orchestrated the raid

    He did offer to fly at his own expense to the facility or facilities where the horses were placed and do a one by one assessment. HSUS and DEFHR moved to block his examination however there was no ruling on it due to withdrawal of charges by the D.A. They did try and have a charge (4 accounts) of failure to provide shelter but the judge tossed that one out after he viewed 5 shelters each valued at $15,000 and exceeding standards for horses.



  16. #96

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    Fairfax,

    I've never seen this, but are the actual court records available somewhere online to read? Can you link to them?
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.



  17. #97
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    Why are you guys arguing with someone whose claim to fame is that he talked to Ted Bundy?

    Fairfax apparently doesn't like anyone but Fairfax. I glanced at his threads and posts since joining, and he's anti-everything, especially the "government which is coming to get you" (led by a black president, of course) and any organization which represents itself as pro-animal.

    I still don't believe he talked to Ted Bundy. But if there was ever something to be anti- about, it's a serial killer.

    Meanwhile, I guess all animal organizations workers need to take a vow of poverty and wear sackcloth and all. Heck Faifax probably still talks to Henneke, who died last Fall.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I do not recall him going to the farm.
    So he couldn't possibly KNOW that the BCS was not applied properly.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
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    Analise....I have transcripts however I am not authorized to release them. There are pending lawsuits against the agencies and the county and I do not think much is available until those are filed.



  20. #100
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    Angela

    Your PhD is in ?????

    You are a credited professor at which facility?

    How many horses do you own?

    How many rescues have you actively been involved in and for how many years?



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