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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    Today, with all the virtually instant forms of communication available, I don't see how one quick email/facebook message/etc is really taking up anyones valuable time any more. Especially when it takes only a few minutes to write an email and the same on the other end to read and respond to it...
    You are absolutely right Allison and I agree with you, it only takes a few minutes to write an email and if your horse strikes as being exceptional, you can be sure people will take the time for it.

    Otherwise in this wide world of information where your horses will be compare to hundred of other horses, buyers have to narrow down and unless looking for a specific bloodline, I guess he will start looking at the one he can afford.

    Then he will contact you so why not be in this category rigth from the start.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    May. 14, 2012
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    North Carolina
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    I own a French Bakery/Bistro. I don't think my customers would be quite as happy if they knew their $2.00 croissant cost me $.23 in materials, no matter how fantastique!

    They would not think about the labor, rent, taxes, sales staff, advertising, utilities, donations, equipment, repairs, music and... maybe a petite profit por moi!

    I was always bothered by no price or "Private Treaty". Hadn't thought about the professionals out there. I stand corrected. Thanks.

    cardinalridgenc.com
    ameliesfrenchbakery.com


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  3. #43
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    Oct. 2, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRF-Lynn View Post
    I own a French Bakery/Bistro. I don't think my customers would be quite as happy if they knew their $2.00 croissant cost me $.23 in materials, no matter how fantastique!

    They would not think about the labor, rent, taxes, sales staff, advertising, utilities, donations, equipment, repairs, music and... maybe a petite profit por moi!

    I was always bothered by no price or "Private Treaty". Hadn't thought about the professionals out there. I stand corrected. Thanks.

    cardinalridgenc.com
    ameliesfrenchbakery.com
    But your croissants didn't cost only materials, customers are paying for the materials, your time, your shop, service, etc.
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
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  4. #44
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    North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by EquusMagnificus View Post
    But your croissants didn't cost only materials, customers are paying for the materials, your time, your shop, service, etc.
    Yes...that is my point. I was trying to say I now appreciate why those dealing with trainers and other professionals who eventually sell would not want their customers to be aware of the "wholesale" price if you will. And also why the end purchaser should not be upset if/when they discover the original price.



    cardinalridgenc.com
    ameliesfrenchbakery.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Oct. 2, 2007
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    Ooops sorry, I read your post too quickly! Gosh. I should've had that extra coffee.
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
    Facebook | YouTube |Twitter | LinkedIn



  6. #46

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    Personally, If you are going to post a price...post the price NOT a range. I never inquire when I see a "range'... just doesn't sit right with me. Kinda like whatever the traffic will bear.... and I never follow up. JMHO
    I will always inquire about a horse I like if I do not see a price.
    ~ Bill Rube ~
    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
    Check us out on Facebook


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Sep. 29, 2009
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    I think it is so the individual selling the horse can make it up as they go along.

    IOW, horse is this price today, this price tomorrow, this price for this person, this price for that person, this price for a person who wants to do this with the horse, and so on. To me no price means the above and then some, also private treaty.

    Put a price. Make up your mind. If you have a sales page, or an ad out there, put the price.

    Not sure why private treaty or call for price is on an ad or sales page. Why would the seller want people to inquire and say oh too much. Oh I know, so they can talk them into a higher price. No, so the seller can make up a price according to the person inquiring.

    Put a price.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    honestly, if folks are worried about pricing a horse on a public website where they sell to trainers who then resell - don't list your wholesale price - list teh retail price.

    every person pretty much on earth knows that when they pay "retail" the person they buy from is buying the same product at "wholesale" and marks it up to make a profit.

    people will happily pay retail because it allows them access to stuff that they wouldn't otherwise have access to....

    how would folks feel if they went into the bakery and there were no prices listed? or better a range?

    said bakery lists retail... and if they have a wholesale inquiry i am sure they would have a wholesale price....

    that is how the system works - not sure why horses aren't similar?

    i think what pisses folks off is to know that the price they paid was inflated a gigantic amount - not a reasonable amount....

    also the lack of sunshine also allows some folks to really rig the system.....


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    May. 28, 2003
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    NOVA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    how would folks feel if they went into the bakery and there were no prices listed? or better a range?
    If you're honestly comparing purchasing horses to purchasing baked goods, there's not much point in providing further insight as to why sellers/breeders don't post prices.
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Sep. 19, 2008
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    Maxville, On
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    We post prices but some trainers will not buy a horse that has had a price posted in the past because it causes issues for them down the road when they try to sell the horse for two or three times what they paid for it. Sometimes, it IS a legitimate mark up as training and showing is expensive and the value of the horse can climb significantly with that investment. Sometimes it is that there are a bunch of people who are getting a commission on the horse and those 5 to 20% commissions a piece start to add up fast. Again, some of that can be legitimate. If someone is doing the the work to help someone buy or sell a horse, than they should get paid for their time and effort. For example, say a horse was priced at $45,000 that was jumping 4' courses but had limited show miles. The horse was sent out on consignment and the trainer sold the horse for $60,000 2 months later. The new buyer found an old ad for the horse and was upset about the $15,000 mark-up, but the trainer had 2 months of expenses for the horse plus 4 weeks of horse showing ($7,500). Factor in a 15% commission for his services and the fact that the horse had more miles under his belt and that mark-up was not unreasonable at all, but it is tough getting buyers to see it that way.

    Maybe to prevent this, you could removed the price on your ad and website when the horse is sold so the client of your buyer wouldn't know how much he was sold. I see that a lot and I do it when the buyer is asking for it.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Hickory View Post
    If you're honestly comparing purchasing horses to purchasing baked goods, there's not much point in providing further insight as to why sellers/breeders don't post prices.
    i was commenting on a post upthread that brought bakeries into the conversation

    you can use anything tho.... retailers buy at wholesale and sell at retail... that is how they make money. horse sellers are no different so i am not sure why folks get upset that folks make $$ on horse sales.....



  12. #52
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    Oct. 29, 2000
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    Southern Pines, N.C.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloomingtonfarm View Post
    Maybe to prevent this, you could removed the price on your ad and website when the horse is sold so the client of your buyer wouldn't know how much he was sold. I see that a lot and I do it when the buyer is asking for it.
    I totally agree with this. Of course, I am curious what a fancy horse sold for,
    but it is none of my business. Only the buyer and seller need to know how much money changed hands in the transaction.

    I see a big difference in reselling a horse for more money, than the example showjumper 66 used. (However, I know that Showjumper 66 DOES post prices, so her example was just that, an example, and does not reflect the honest way she does business.)

    If a trainer buys the horse, then he has put his money down and assumed the risk of loss or lameness. If, by virtue of his talent and connections he sells the horse for a tidy profit, I have no problem with that. But, if the trainer is just an agent and the horse sells for double the asking price -- that is just wrong. If there are middlemen and they are involved in the sale, then he did work/performed a service that made the buyer's and seller's job easier. So his cut should come out of their commissions.

    Of course, this will only happen in my dreams. The actual custom of selling horses in the horse biz is more like a nightmare. I know whereof I speak. Many years ago I paid 250% of the asking price for a horse and my trainer put in a new swimming pool. I found out a year later, after I had left the trainer for other reasons. I was very glad I was no longer with him.

    Now I wish that I had either sued him for Breach of Fiduciary Duty and/or outted him.

    But, that transaction is one reason why I will not buy a horse whose price is not listed. I agree with the poster who said that unlisted prices are open to manipulation. I prefer to know that (minus negotiation) I am paying the same price that anyone else would pay.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Mar. 7, 2007
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    "If a trainer buys the horse, then he has put his money down and assumed the risk of loss or lameness. If, by virtue of his talent and connections he sells the horse for a tidy profit, I have no problem with that. But, if the trainer is just an agent and the horse sells for double the asking price -- that is just wrong. If there are middlemen and they are involved in the sale, then he did work/performed a service that made the buyer's and seller's job easier. So his cut should come out of their commissions."

    I agree with the above. Sadly, the "commission" often far exceeds what is considered to be fair. I see it all the time. Horses listed for 30k above what they paid less than a month later and 50k a few months later. This largely went unnoticed in the past. Now, not so much.


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  14. #54
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    I agree to a point, but say a trainer takes a $30,000 horse for 3 months at $1,500 a month for board and training ($4,500). The horse goes to 2 weeks of shows each month ($6,000). Add in farrier ($500). The trainer now has $11,000 into this horse so needs to get $41,000 for the horse to break even for his/her time. Factor in a 15% commission and the horse is now $44,500. That is pretty darn close to the $50,000. A lot of people will give a little wiggle room for negotiations although we prefer not to. Sometimes, the trainer investing in the horse was able to get it below market value. Sometimes a horse is marked up inappropriately. Sometimes there are people who are taking larger cuts than what is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by remrenam View Post
    I agree with the above. Sadly, the "commission" often far exceeds what is considered to be fair. I see it all the time. Horses listed for 30k above what they paid less than a month later and 50k a few months later. This largely went unnoticed in the past. Now, not so much.
    Last edited by showjumpers66; Jan. 27, 2013 at 01:43 AM.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  15. #55
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    I agree. I hate the practice of clients being totally out of the loop of buying / selling. Too many trainers are not honest with their clients as to what they sold or purchased a horse for, padding the sales price so that they get a chunk on top of their agreed upon commission. To avoid this, we always insist that our sales contracts are actually signed by the client even if the trainer is acting as agent and all commissions are negotiated in advance. We will not pay commissions to trainers buying for a client and we advise the buyer that should be negotiated with their trainer/agent, but if an agent helps sell a horse for us they will get a commission or an agent fee depending on their involvement.

    Before the market crashed, trainers with good contacts could find imports for under 10,000 Euros. With the conversion rate and import, they could get them here for under $15,000. Then, they would turn around and sell them in 30 to 60 days for $50,000 - $100,000. "Losing" the passports at time import prevents anyone from knowing their contacts and cutting them out in the future. I think it is harder to do now as the market is tougher, the European sellers now have knowledge of the practice (we can all imagine how they felt to learn what their horse sold for a month later), and buyers are smarter. I am sure it is still happening, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    Of course, this will only happen in my dreams. The actual custom of selling horses in the horse biz is more like a nightmare. I know whereof I speak. Many years ago I paid 250% of the asking price for a horse and my trainer put in a new swimming pool. I found out a year later, after I had left the trainer for other reasons. I was very glad I was no longer with him.

    Now I wish that I had either sued him for Breach of Fiduciary Duty and/or outted him.

    But, that transaction is one reason why I will not buy a horse whose price is not listed. I agree with the poster who said that unlisted prices are open to manipulation. I prefer to know that (minus negotiation) I am paying the same price that anyone else would pay.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!


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  16. #56
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    Jan. 2, 2006
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    Colorado
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    People who don't like a range of prices - a question. I use ranges for in utero/coming foals - is this ok? I don't know what I will ask until the foal hits the ground, so I figure a ball park is better than nothing?



  17. #57
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    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    I agree. I hate the practice of clients being totally out of the loop of buying / selling. Too many trainers are not honest with their clients as to what they sold or purchased a horse for, padding the sales price so that they get a chunk on top of their agreed upon commission. To avoid this, we always insist that our sales contracts are actually signed by the client even if the trainer is acting as agent and all commissions are negotiated in advance. We will not pay commissions to trainers buying for a client and we advise the buyer that should be negotiated with their trainer/agent, but if an agent helps sell a horse for us they will get a commission or an agent fee depending on their involvement.

    .
    One way to prevent some of the buying/selling drama is to always write the check directly to the seller. NEVER to the trainer.
    Commissions should be paid by the seller and buyer directly to whoever acted as their agent and not included in the purchase price.

    When doing a transfer of ownership with USEF ( which is what should happen instead of a new recording) the signature of the last recorded USEF owner is required on the USEF recording form or on a Bill of Sale. USEF will not accept a trainer signature.

    This method ensures that the buyer and seller each know the actual price, eliminates the huge markups that Lord Helpus mentioned, keep commissions under control and ensures a clear trail of ownership.

    I do agree that the previous sale price is nobody's business.

    If your trainer or agent will not do business this way it gives you a good clue if they are actually acting in your best interests or not.
    Fan of Sea Accounts


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  18. #58
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    Sep. 19, 2008
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    I woulnd't mind to see my horse going double price of what I sold him a month before. It would mean a happy client that would come back for more.

    It would be another story if I would sell a horse less because I would want this horse to be retain and show in this stable. If they turned around and make the profit I would have expect to do myself then I would be upset.

    And again I don't see a problem to sell a horse 250% more than what he was sold previously. It happen to me once that I was offered 3 times and a half the amount I paid for a horse but refused because I knew I could never afford to own such an expensive horse ... but I was the lucky one who found this horse and lucky enough that I could afford to refuse the offer. Did I took the right decision I don't know but I don't regret it.

    I mean it's not what you pay for that counts, it's the VALUE it has. Let's say you buy a horse 100 K you looked around and all the others horses that you wanted were about the same price because they had relatively the same success in competition etc ... then who cares that the seller had just bought this horse 10K as long as he is sound and in good health of course.

    If I found a ring of 10K does it mean that I can't sell it for 10K? I paid nothing for it! However the problem lies if I sell it to my dear friend who trust me to death when I tell her that she should buy it for 20K... if she pay this price because she trust me , this is fraud, simple as that. But for 10K this is fair.


    So if you bought your horse 250% his value because your coach told you THIS IS what his value was, SUE HIM: HE IS A FRAUD, but not because he sold you a horse in his fair value and made a HUGE profit out of it. This is the law of the market.


    What I think is unfair is when the agent or coach take advantage of their client because they thrust them. It's is not the price you pay for it that counts but to be true of the value you sell the horse. And when your coach is telling you he is asking 10 or 15% on the sale of a horse, it's better be true otherwise he is also a fraud and yes Lord Elpus, you should sue him it might not be too late.
    Last edited by bloomingtonfarm; Jan. 27, 2013 at 08:42 AM.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse


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  19. #59
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    Jun. 24, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    I agree to a point, but say a trainer takes a $30,000 horse for 3 months at $1,500 a month for board and training ($4,500). The horse goes to 2 weeks of shows each month ($6,000). Add in farrier ($500). The trainer now has $11,000 into this horse so needs to get $41,000 for the horse to break even for his/her time. Factor in a 15% commission and the horse is now $44,500. That is pretty darn close to the $50,000. A lot of people will give a little wiggle room for negotiations although we prefer not to. Sometimes, the trainer investing in the horse was able to get it below market value. Sometimes a horse is marked up inappropriately. Sometimes there are people who are taking larger cuts than what is appropriate.
    Most trainers are not buying, putting money into the horse and then reselling and if the are, they definitely not spending upward of $30,000 in the majority of cases for any horse. There is too much risk to get stuck. The model for their business is to mediate deals for clients and taking horses on consignment or getting them so ridiculously cheap (or very young and waiting until starting) and reselling. This way they won't get stuck. Any person who breeds or sells horses knows very well that it is near impossible to make back EVERY dollar put into the animal beyond a certain age if they have been continuously showing since 3.

    In my experience, a horse actively showing since 3 years old (younger if shown in-hand) will easily have $65,000+ into it by 6 years and this figure goes up by the thousands every year. Of course, this includes EVERY dollar from conception, or buying as foal, onward. My horses usually will start showing at 2 (in-hand) and under saddle from 3. It is VERY expensive to do right and I know it is highly unlikely to make back every penny on every horse. My husband is in business and he tells me all the time that making money selling horses is a joke. He is right.... It is a labour of love !!

    Although I don't mind contacting someone to ask about the price, from a selling point of view, I don't want to be bothered with people contacting me just to ask the price. I'd rather know that if they are contacting me, they are looking for more information as I already know that the horse is in their price range.
    Last edited by Mistysmom; Jan. 27, 2013 at 11:46 AM.


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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly Malone View Post
    People who don't like a range of prices - a question. I use ranges for in utero/coming foals - is this ok? I don't know what I will ask until the foal hits the ground, so I figure a ball park is better than nothing?

    that situation makes sense... but what happens if the foal is on the upper side of your range? wont the client feel "cheated" because they aren't being quoted the lowest price?

    also, the risk of "what you might get" is being taken by the buyer - so they should not have to pay you more for their risk taking....

    ie: it is their good (or bad) luck if the foal comes out better or worse than expected - and that is why the price should be lower than a known entity. that is the reason why in utero prices should be lower than an on the ground foal.

    if you want to change your price based on what hits the ground you should market the foal once it is born....



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