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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No, I do not need to know the particular alphabet soup label.
    But it is to fair to the kid to pretend nothing is going on.

    The kid had a meltdown because we were operating under the assumption that we were just dealing with a mild learning disability.

    I much prefer knowing a bit more over the olden ways, shoving a kid into the background, considering it a dummy.

    The child needs a bit more tailored approach which we (we are a small group of adults, in addition to the group of kids) clearly cannot provide if we can't manage to get a clue. The kid would be the loser. Not really an option!
    Why don't you suggest private lessons? There are many beginning riders that do much better in private lessons than group. If you don't offer private lessons, than I would tell the parent "you know, I think Suzie isn't ready for group lessons yet, and would do better in a private lesson. We don't offer private lessons, but Jane XYZ down the road does, and she's fabulous - you should call her."

    You said:
    Even as non professional, I am slipping in the spot where I interact and teach youngsters, I do not want to make grave mistakes that could be easily avoided by a little more background knowledge.

    What are the grave mistakes? It's a riding lesson. If you are talking about basic safety and the student is not capable, then again, I would tell the parent to seek out private lessons. Whether or not she has a disability (and/or knowing what it is) really isn't going to help. If they tell you she is autistic -- how does that help? Can you offer her private lessons now?



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    Why don't you suggest private lessons? There are many beginning riders that do much better in private lessons than group. If you don't offer private lessons, than I would tell the parent "you know, I think Suzie isn't ready for group lessons yet, and would do better in a private lesson. We don't offer private lessons, but Jane XYZ down the road does, and she's fabulous - you should call her."

    You said:
    Even as non professional, I am slipping in the spot where I interact and teach youngsters, I do not want to make grave mistakes that could be easily avoided by a little more background knowledge.

    What are the grave mistakes? It's a riding lesson. If you are talking about basic safety and the student is not capable, then again, I would tell the parent to seek out private lessons. Whether or not she has a disability (and/or knowing what it is) really isn't going to help. If they tell you she is autistic -- how does that help? Can you offer her private lessons now?
    LOL, well, no. It is not a riding lesson. The context was nonHR. But many here do teach kids, as I have taught martial arts in the past, you find yourself faced with a kid who's parent failed to mention a few key points.
    I do wish though I would have a horse at my disposal, because I think it would make things a bit easier with that particular child.
    There is not very much forthcoming from the kid, I am thinking it's a personality thing, being really quiet. Could be that it is past experience...

    So while I am considering to ask the mother what exactly is wrong with the child, I am also planning NOT to word it that way.
    This is not about the label, my feelings, etc, this is to make the experience for the kid a pleasurable one, and hopefully a great learning experience!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #23
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    I mostly teach college age or adult folks one on one so my methods may not work for you. But I usually start out by asking questions.

    -When you've done X in the past, what did you enjoy most?
    -When you've taken lessons/been in class what did the teacher/prof do that you found helpful? Not helpful?
    -What are your goals as we work together?
    -In the past, what kind of challenges have you had? (I'll usually hear things like "got bored", "got nervous", "didn't understand what was being asked"
    -When you're learning new things, do you like to read about it, see it, or hear it?

    Now, you can't ask a 6YO all of that and expect to get super helpful information, but you can still ask and let them give you the input they can. And you can frame a lot of those questions to a parent. Asking what has been challenging, what works best, etc. And that's not just reserved for kids/adults with known learning challenges. MOST people have things that work better or worse for them when processing and implementing new information.

    I tutor nursing/pre med students in pathophys mostly. But even working with my stepdaughters (who have no known learning disabilities) on homework or on horseback has shown me how differently people prefer to pick up information. Of course, if you want to succeed in life, you have to learn to adapt to multiple methods, but it sure is nice to build up some confidence in any student by working with their strengths too.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


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  4. #24
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    Not even sure if this is horse-related since apparently this meltdown occurred during a non-horse related activity?

    But, either way, here's the thing. Horses are horses. Riding is riding.
    While it is possible to be somewhat flexible in how a human goes about interacting with horses and riding them (people trail ride, people play polo, people show jump, people have geriatric retirees and go feed carrots over the fence), at some point, a horse is a horse and the human has to interact on the horse on Horse Terms.

    Having meltdowns over small issues isn't horse compatible. Yes, you have to wear a helmet. No, you can't scream whenever you feel like it. Yes, you must exercise control over your temper, period.

    If for whatever reason and through no fault of its own the child is too learning disabled or lacks the bare minimum level of emotional control to meet the Basic Horse Terms, then suggest another activity. It is too bad, and surely it is not the child's fault, but again, at some point when you are dealing with 1,100 pound flight animals there IS, in fact, a bare minimum level of behavioral control that is REQUIRED, or we have to do something else.

    Not everyone NEEDS to learn to ride. Riding is a round hole and if the kid is a square peg then don't force the issue.


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  5. #25
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    I wouldn't worry so much about the agenda.
    Riding- some enjoy it, some enjoy grooming
    Painting-some feel the brush strokes, some need the end product
    Sking-some like the snow, some the speed

    Unless your talking about something that only judges the end result, everyone may benefit the most by just taking a step back and following the kids lead.
    Let her show you since she's not verbal what part she enjoys.


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  6. #26
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    No, nobody has to ride or ski...
    but as a responsible person, I try to make the activity as enjoyable for the participants as I can. So I was hoping somebody had a few wise words on how to extract the info, especially from the parent.
    Without making them feel cornered, etc.
    It's delicate.
    I want to make sure that I know the difference between a kid drifting off into Lala-Land or having info overload. So I can alter that.
    I want to know if the inability to do certain things we tend to take for granted are a momentary lapse or something that needs working on.
    I don't want to do something that backfires. Sure, worst case the kid does not return for lessons or what have you. But I would consider that as failure on my part. It's ok, to not do something. But I want to give it the best possible groundwork for success.

    But I did get a few very good pointers, thank you guys for those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  7. #27
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    "I want Bobby to have the best experience possible. Is there anything you can tell me about Bobby that would help make this a more fun and educational experience for him? Or that I should know to look out for that would indicate frustration?"

    I mean, that's a fair question to any parent of any child at any learning ability.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianHippo View Post
    Alagirl, i think you 've misunderstood. I do not suggest pretending nothing is going on, shoving him/her in a corner, or setting the kid up to fail. All I'm saying is that you don't have a right to know the diagnosis/medications-- clear privacy issues-- but you CAN ask questions about the outward impacts. (along the lines of my first post). Same end result.
    Best of luck with it
    I am sorry, but I don't buy it.
    As soon as I fist over my child to another person and give him or her the responsibility for said child, I do believe I have a minimum responsibility to declare problems that could make it difficult or impossible for the relationship to become fruitful. And - in case of over night stays, like for shows - it does help to know if and what kind of medication a child is taking. If for nothing else to inform emergency responders.
    A great many kids are on this or that that hugely alters how they behave and react.
    If the parent tells the instructor right from the beginning, a lot of embarrassing fact finding could be avoided!
    (yes, we are dealing with overnight 'shows' as well and some parents believe to let the kid run wild without meds. Not that I do blame them, but they are not in their home environment, with their single caregiver, but with a group and leaders who have more than one child to look after.
    It's not like I want to see the medical files.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    I am sorry, but I don't buy it.
    As soon as I fist over my child to another person and give him or her the responsibility for said child, I do believe I have a minimum responsibility to declare problems that could make it difficult or impossible for the relationship to become fruitful. And - in case of over night stays, like for shows - it does help to know if and what kind of medication a child is taking. If for nothing else to inform emergency responders.
    A great many kids are on this or that that hugely alters how they behave and react.
    If the parent tells the instructor right from the beginning, a lot of embarrassing fact finding could be avoided!
    (yes, we are dealing with overnight 'shows' as well and some parents believe to let the kid run wild without meds. Not that I do blame them, but they are not in their home environment, with their single caregiver, but with a group and leaders who have more than one child to look after.
    It's not like I want to see the medical files.
    Do you actually have kids?

    Seriously, being the kid's martial arts instructor or riding instructor does not require you to need to know much about their personal or medical history. The parents nor the kids should feel any obligation to explain to you every *problem* they might have so that you can decide whether or not it is likely to impact how you teach them.

    As far as overnight shows - yes, if you are being given the responsibility to supervise underage children overnight when their parents are not with them, you should know what medications they are taking that could be problematic. However, I would think that most parents of minor children with significant medical, emotional or mental health issues probably do not leave kids in your care overnight. The "let their kid run wild without meds" statement is bizarre. What makes you sure that any kids' behavior is related to medication or lackthereof?

    To be honest, I see your interest in wanting to know more of a way to validate your own feelings -- aha! I knew there was something else going on! But I don't really see how your knowing will help.

    Although I also have no idea what we are talking about anymore - I assumed you were her riding instructor....? Now it sounds like girl scouts or something...?


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    Do you actually have kids?

    Seriously, being the kid's martial arts instructor or riding instructor does not require you to need to know much about their personal or medical history. The parents nor the kids should feel any obligation to explain to you every *problem* they might have so that you can decide whether or not it is likely to impact how you teach them.

    As far as overnight shows - yes, if you are being given the responsibility to supervise underage children overnight when their parents are not with them, you should know what medications they are taking that could be problematic. However, I would think that most parents of minor children with significant medical, emotional or mental health issues probably do not leave kids in your care overnight. The "let their kid run wild without meds" statement is bizarre. What makes you sure that any kids' behavior is related to medication or lackthereof?

    To be honest, I see your interest in wanting to know more of a way to validate your own feelings -- aha! I knew there was something else going on! But I don't really see how your knowing will help.

    Although I also have no idea what we are talking about anymore - I assumed you were her riding instructor....? Now it sounds like girl scouts or something...?
    ok, what is your point?

    I did say first post, the situation was not HR, but I wanted to ask the people who do teach children.
    And seriously, you have no idea what 'parents' do!
    Yes, parents to let their kids run around unmedicated on weekends. That is - in the privacy of their home - there prerogative.
    It becomes an issue when they are not there to supervise the kid or when more kids are in a group with limited adult supervision. And they are not professional educators. Happens all the time.
    At barns, too, form what I gather.
    Yes, you might need to know if and what kind of medication a person you interact with is on. A lot of the heavy artillery is not supposed to be taken with NSAID pain relievers, something most of us do not think twice about using. Children most often don't know what they are taking, much less what's on the hand out the pharmacist gives you. That is part of adult communication. Or should be.

    If I have children or not is in this instance rather immaterial. I am interacting with them, trying to teach them something. You know, be a positive influence in their lives. My feelings are not relevant. However, I would feel horrible should I make a mistake that could have been easily avoided. With a little more communication.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    As soon as I fist over my child to another person and give him or her the responsibility for said child, I do believe I have a minimum responsibility to declare problems that could make it difficult or impossible for the relationship to become fruitful.
    At some point, expect some competence from YOURSELF.

    In the case of horses, people hand "unknown quantities" to trainers all the time. It is the trainer's job to read the horse and train accordingly. Nobody calls a psychic and asks the horse that just walked in the barn out of an auction whether it learned to lead properly at three. The trainer FIGURES IT OUT by what the horse DOES. If the trainer is experienced it is practically a choose your own adventure: this horse seems like it will do A, B, or C, if it does A then my action plan is 1, 2 or 3, if it does B then 2 is out of the question but 4 has worked in the past, hm the owner said it does C but I don't buy it for a second, and for the record I don't believe it's sound either, etc etc and so on. The trainer ASSESSES the horse and TRAINS ACCORDINGLY. If they needed someone to hand them a map they wouldn't be the trainer.

    Try it with the kid. LOOK at what it is doing and TEACH ACCORDINGLY.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    At some point, expect some competence from YOURSELF.

    In the case of horses, people hand "unknown quantities" to trainers all the time. It is the trainer's job to read the horse and train accordingly. Nobody calls a psychic and asks the horse that just walked in the barn out of an auction whether it learned to lead properly at three. The trainer FIGURES IT OUT by what the horse DOES. If the trainer is experienced it is practically a choose your own adventure: this horse seems like it will do A, B, or C, if it does A then my action plan is 1, 2 or 3, if it does B then 2 is out of the question but 4 has worked in the past, hm the owner said it does C but I don't buy it for a second, and for the record I don't believe it's sound either, etc etc and so on. The trainer ASSESSES the horse and TRAINS ACCORDINGLY. If they needed someone to hand them a map they wouldn't be the trainer.

    Try it with the kid. LOOK at what it is doing and TEACH ACCORDINGLY.
    But I can also put a bad horse down. Parents frown upon that option.

    and again, I did not, nor do now, proclaim to be a pro, hense the question.

    I am not about to make these kids my guinea pigs or lab rats!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    But I can also put a bad horse down. Parents frown upon that option.

    and again, I did not, nor do now, proclaim to be a pro, hense the question.

    I am not about to make these kids my guinea pigs or lab rats!
    Do you think a trainer that is competently assessing a horse and training it accordingly is making it his "lab rat"? No, he is assessing the horse and competently guiding it down the path it needs to go down, accordingly.

    If you don't feel qualified to handle a particular child, tell the parents that. The same way good trainers are more than happy to tell clients when a horse is outside their particular skill set ("I don't break babies," or "I don't do eventing" or "I don't fix bolting or rearing issues.")

    If you suspect that your interaction with these kids would be mostly guessing and trial and error on your part, probably best to tell the parents their kids would be better off with somebody else who has more experience with these types of behaviors.

    No matter WHAT you are doing with horses, when you are teaching others, and children in particular, it is your responsibility to make sure you are always driving within the range of your headlights.


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  14. #34
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    What exactly IS it you are doing with these kids? Whatever it is, perhaps it is not best to seek advice on a horse forum, under the guise of the issue being horse related. No?
    "My doctrine is this, that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt.”
    ― Anna Sewell


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    And seriously, you have no idea what 'parents' do!
    Yes, parents to let their kids run around unmedicated on weekends. That is - in the privacy of their home - there prerogative.
    It becomes an issue when they are not there to supervise the kid or when more kids are in a group with limited adult supervision. And they are not professional educators. Happens all the time.
    At barns, too, form what I gather.
    Oh believe me, I know a lot about what parents do. I am one, and know many. If kids (medicated or otherwise) can't behave appropriately without their parents supervising, then they should not be allowed to travel unsupervised. Who is forcing their ill-behaved minor children on you, and why? If it's a problem, then you should say something to the parents -- "I'm sorry, but I think Jane would be more appropriately supervised on this trip by a parent. I don't feel that I have the time to keep an eye on her."

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Yes, you might need to know if and what kind of medication a person you interact with is on. A lot of the heavy artillery is not supposed to be taken with NSAID pain relievers, something most of us do not think twice about using. Children most often don't know what they are taking, much less what's on the hand out the pharmacist gives you. That is part of adult communication. Or should be.
    If anyone gave my children any form of medication without my permission I'd go apeshit on them. No one does that anymore - kids can't even bring ibuprofen to school for themselves anymore. No matter what you're teaching, you should not be giving out even OTC medications to kids. If you are traveling with kids without their parents, you may need a hospital release and it would the place to write the medications, but that would be for hospital use, not yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    If I have children or not is in this instance rather immaterial. I am interacting with them, trying to teach them something. You know, be a positive influence in their lives. My feelings are not relevant. However, I would feel horrible should I make a mistake that could have been easily avoided. With a little more communication.
    Communication is great, and yay for positive influence! But you're a teacher for what, an hour or two a week? That does not make you privy to anyone else's medical history. If they were adults - would you still feel the same way? Would you expect your adult students to "come clean" and tell you what medications they are on or diagnosis they have in order for you to teach them?

    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    If you don't feel qualified to handle a particular child, tell the parents that. The same way good trainers are more than happy to tell clients when a horse is outside their particular skill set ("I don't break babies," or "I don't do eventing" or "I don't fix bolting or rearing issues.")

    If you suspect that your interaction with these kids would be mostly guessing and trial and error on your part, probably best to tell the parents their kids would be better off with somebody else who has more experience with these types of behaviors.
    Agree.


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  16. #36
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    What I am doing with these children is exactly nonya.

    I asked a forum populated by instructors who teach children if they had any pointers as to how extract information from the parents without hitting them over the head with a carrot stick.
    Tact. But I suppose that is a foreign concept for some.
    As simple as that. Plain question.


    I have gotten some pointers which I will take into consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  17. #37
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    Good luck OP. Some people seem to be barking up the wrong tree here. I hope you are able to speak with the parents of the child(ren) in question and gain some useful insight.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    while with some kids I do agree it can be a good learning experience, the one I am eyeballing would be a pretty bad candidate....I prefer to set them up for success, make the right thing easier.


    The intention is to not put a kid (or a person) into positions that they cannot handle. The idea is to expand their level of confidence to match their level of knowledge.

    I used to train air traffic controllers, the first few weeks of active training was nearly the end of me, however, I knew the person knew what to do they just needed guidance in applying the knowledge into real life.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by clanter View Post
    The intention is to not put a kid (or a person) into positions that they cannot handle. The idea is to expand their level of confidence to match their level of knowledge.

    I used to train air traffic controllers, the first few weeks of active training was nearly the end of me, however, I knew the person knew what to do they just needed guidance in applying the knowledge into real life.
    still working on where the skill level is and where the confidence level....and of course building the trust as well.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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    I have had a few students come with learning differences or behaviours that presented challenges, but whose parents had not mentionned these issues.

    In one case, the parents just didn't think it mattered. It mattered a lot...but the parents didn't know what they didn't know.

    In the other cases though, the kids hadn't been diagnosed (although they were in the years I was teaching them). Teachers at schools aren't required to learn about diagnosing learning disabilities, which is where they are mostly likely to be noticed. The parents may not know this though, and think their kid is fine, albeit a little different, otherwise the teachers would have said something.

    A private meeting with the parents (or a parent), or a phone call if needed is how I would go about it.

    "Hi, I am enjoying teaching "Bobby", but we seem to sometimes hit a road block during the lessons. Does he have this issue at home or at school? Is there any information you can give me that can help me teach him better?"

    I would also make them feel like their kid isn't the only one by saying something like "Bobby isn't the only child I have taught that struggles from time to time, but he just seems like such a bright child, that I figured I must be missing some key to how he learns/interacts"

    Having information about a specific disability CAN go a long way to improving teaching styles. ADHD, partial deafness, selective mutism, prone to panic attacks and such, can all be managed better once the instructor knows about the issue, and is given the tools/information to do so.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!


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