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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    It may be technically on the public record, but it is not easy to find. Probably close to impossible for somebody relatively new to horses who didn't know how or where to look. When this subject came up on a previous thread, I did a Google search on somebody who has a bit of a history of USEF penalties. The most recent suspension popped up from a few years ago, but not the multiple penalties before that, at least not in the first 10-12 pages of results. How many newbies will look harder than that?



    That doesn't surprise me if his situation involves things outside the jurisdiction of the USEF. I'm not familiar with his story, but it might be asking a lot to expect USEF to check the financial or criminal or civil records of hundreds of people across the country.
    I agree with you, and that begs the question , what use is the "certified trainers list" to anyone but trainers and the USHJA? I suppose you could check to see if someone was lying about their show record , but that's about the extent of it. As I mentioned, I think a really big disclaimer at the bottom of the "list" by the USHJA would be in order.

    Something on the order of " We do not guarantee the certified trainers are not involved in civil or criminal actions in court ".

    If you claim to background check , then you better do it. Google works wonders really. Not that hard, COTH posters do it all the time...

    However a "newbie" may reasonably be expected to believe that a "USHJA Certified Trainer" is ENDORSED by the the USHJA, or, at LEAST, has not been involved in (and lost) civil or criminal proceedings against them regarding their horse business/activities , or has outstanding judgements and/or past suspensions by the governing bodies of the sport.

    They have been "background checked" after all..
    Last edited by skydy; Jan. 22, 2013 at 11:05 PM. Reason: To add..



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberTenOx View Post
    I’m pretty sure suspended trainers are supposed to be removed from the list. I know they do background checks every year.
    I was guessing based on the first sentence above that the "background checks" were referring to checking to see if the trainers were suspended by USEF when the "background check" was being performed (apparently once a year?), not that it was a criminal background check. And that any trainer that was indeed under suspension at the time of the yearly check would be omitted from the list. So if a trainer was officially suspended anytime after the day of the yearly check, he or she would remain on the list (which is not acceptable if this is the case - and I don't even think that suspended trainers should be REMOVED from the list; their profiles should remain available and should be clearly marked with a summary of the offense and the time frame of the suspension, and that summary should remain on the profile even after reinstatement). But I could have misinterpreted.

    I really don't think it's fair to expect USEF or USHJA to perform criminal background checks on its members (or financially feasible - I'm pretty sure they aren't free). They aren't the police - their purpose is to track results, and they are providing a system to report those results to the public. Expecting them to provide data that they don't keep track of is a little much. But since they do keep track of suspensions, that information should be up to date and available in the reports at all times.



  3. #43
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    Really? They are "CERTIFYING" people.
    I wouldn't want to put out a list of people certified by my "association" and have criminals and con artists found to be on the list.

    Would rather diminish the importance of your list and the credibility of your organization, wouldn't it?



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    Really? They are "CERTIFYING" people.
    I wouldn't want to put out a list of people certified by my "association" and have criminals and con artists found to be on the list.

    Would rather diminish the importance of your list and the credibility of your organization, wouldn't it?
    Yes, really. If I have concerns about someone's potential criminal activity, I can pay out of my own pocket to have the appropriate party run a background check (although if I felt even the slightest need to do so, I would probably just scratch that trainer off my list and not spend the money). I wouldn't expect a results-centered organization to pay for it for me. That's not what they do. Expecting them to do that will only result in higher membership fees, and I don't want to pay for criminal background checks on every certified trainer in the US.



  5. #45
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    But you aren't a "newbie".
    I did ask who this list was supposed to benefit. If it is the "newbie", then, as I wrote in previous posts, a big disclaimer is in order.



  6. #46
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    We can agree to disagree! I just don't think that USEF and USHJA should be expected to be a personal nanny to everyone who ever sat on a horse's back.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    I was guessing based on the first sentence above that the "background checks" were referring to checking to see if the trainers were suspended by USEF when the "background check" was being performed (apparently once a year?), not that it was a criminal background check.
    Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not involved in this aspect of the TCP, so I can't be authoritative on this, but my understanding is they do criminal background checks. Clearly anyone who is suspended should be removed immediately (although your idea of leaving them but marking them worth some consideration). I believe there is some ongoing discussion about how often the criminal checks occur. I don't know if they checks will pick up civil suits, I'm guessing yes but I really don't know.



  8. #48
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    ynl063w, this was in response to your last post , but answers the next one as well.

    Neither do I.

    However if they are compiling this list of "certified" trainers , they are putting themselves in that (nanny) position whether they intend to or not.

    A newbie, with deep pockets, who trusts that the trainers on the "certified by the USHJA" list are "background checked" and who then finds themselves burned by a "certified trainer" with a record ( horse related unpaid court judgements,suspensions by USEF (or heaven forbid criminal ) against them, may make life quite unpleasant for the USHJA.

    Just saying, something for the USHJA to consider.
    Last edited by skydy; Jan. 23, 2013 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Spelling



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    A newbie, with deep pockets, who trusts that the trainers on the "certified by the USHJA" list are "background checked" and who then finds themselves burned by a "certified trainer" with a record ( horse related unpaid court judgements,suspensions by USEF (or heaven forbid criminal ) against them, may make life quite unpleasant for the USHJA.

    Just saying, something for the USHJA to consider.
    Now that there has been clarification that the background check really is a criminal background check, I agree with you. That is definitely something that needs to be provided in the reports on a real-time basis, not just something that is checked and updated once a year. "Quite unpleasant" is likely to be a huge understatement!



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberTenOx View Post
    Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not involved in this aspect of the TCP, so I can't be authoritative on this, but my understanding is they do criminal background checks. Clearly anyone who is suspended should be removed immediately (although your idea of leaving them but marking them worth some consideration). I believe there is some ongoing discussion about how often the criminal checks occur. I don't know if they checks will pick up civil suits, I'm guessing yes but I really don't know.
    The USHJA, if it has any desire for it's list of "certified trainers" to be credible (and to be prepared to defend it) , better find a way to track civil judgements against it's "certified" trainers. This money thing, seems to be the trouble that most folks have with "trainers" so it would be helpful to have this information available, especially if your organization is "certifying" them.


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    I struggle with trainer certification actually equalling qualification. I personally know several "certified"trainers, and frankly some of their resumes are not only lacking in actual experience, but also contain outright fabrications.
    That said, I will probably do it because of the insurance discounts.



  12. #52
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    And these are the requirements.. http://www.ushja.org/programs/tcp/tcp_faq.aspx Seems as if you have as many chances to fail the quiz, as most states allow you to fail the State Bar Exam , and most State Board exams for Nursing.

    And ...YES!!!! After your suspension is over, you'll be reinstated !!!

    Slapped back on the GOOD list!! At the "sole discretion of the USHJA"

    Unless.. they don't like you?? , or, someone has noticed that you were suspended?? or, someone has made a public fuss about your delinquent behavior on an internet BB??, or you have run naked through the jog of a USHJA pony hunter class?? or... what?

    Now , one of the Requirements to be a USHJ "certified" trainer is "Ethical Business Practices" http://www.ushja.org/programs/tcp/tcp_categories.aspx However to BECOME "certified" requires fees and a quiz and 3 years in the biz..

    So, for god's sake USHJA you better be making sure your listees are what you are purporting them to be.
    ( Hope no one was taken in by Mr. Slaughter because he was on your list).
    Last edited by skydy; Jan. 23, 2013 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Egregious spellling



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    if the suspension/disciplinary history only showed up for certified trainers instead of all members, that would provide even less incentive to get certified. For some.
    Not if certification were to be required for pros that are members and want to participate in USEF horse shows/events.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pds View Post
    Not if certification were to be required for pros that are members and want to participate in USEF horse shows/events.
    Except for the fact that you can be a pro and participate in USEF shows and events without being a trainer. For example, working students, people who broker horse sales, etc.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pds View Post
    Not if certification were to be required for pros that are members and want to participate in USEF horse shows/events.
    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHorse View Post
    Except for the fact that you can be a pro and participate in USEF shows and events without being a trainer. For example, working students, people who broker horse sales, etc.
    I am not a fan of requiring certification.

    There are plenty of people who mostly go to smaller, unrecognized shows, and might only do a few USEF shows a year. If they had to spend money and jump through hoops to get certified, that would just make them skip the recognized shows altogether and stick with the unrated shows. The last thing this sport needs is to be even less inclusive.

    And as RockinHorse said, there are people who would get caught in the middle.

    Especially when the certification really doesn't prove much anyway, according to this discussion.



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