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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJump View Post
    So rated show results are now considered the best measure of teaching ability?
    I think you misunderstand the intent, greatly. All of the shows in the USEF database are included, which means unrated shows as well, also "Outreach" shows which are small and local. You don't have to be life recorded or "going for points".

    The graphs don't judge, they only describe. Many clients realize that a smaller operation, that only goes to local shows, is a much better fit for them personally than a large operation that travels large distances every weekend.

    There is a problem with the "Professional Experience" number, it is relatively new in the USEF database. Because of this trainers can ask to have that number changed to reflect their actual years as a professional. Over time this will not be a problem.

    "Money won" has nothing to do with safely and ethically teaching people how to ride. But some people might be looking for a trainer to ride a horse, and might be interested in that trainer's riding experience.

    The intent of these profiles is to expose as much of the data in the USEF database as possible in a non-competative, non-judgemental way to give a flavor of what each trainer brings to the table, so that clients can find a trainer that meets their needs, not just be attracted to big shiny barns. You'll also notice that the top section of the profile is all information that is entered by the trainer, essentially marketing information. The trainers get to describe themselves first and foremost.



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucassb View Post
    Given the current propensity of many to have grooms sign the entries as the trainer, I imagine that the graphs might be... of limited use, let's say.
    Hopefully this will change.

    And again, I suggest that if the USEF is getting into the trainer certification business, that they certify some sort of COMPETENCE (like the BHS system) NOT the ability to watch a few videos and take an online quiz.
    Rome was not built in a day. Learn to walk before you try to run. The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

    You know, you *can* help. You don't need to just throw darts from the gallery. I'm just a volunteer.



  3. #23
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    Feb. 1, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberTenOx View Post
    (snip)

    Rome was not built in a day. Learn to walk before you try to run. The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

    You know, you *can* help. You don't need to just throw darts from the gallery. I'm just a volunteer.
    NumberTenOx (love the username, BTW) I am not trying to throw darts at you or anyone else.

    As I've tried to state a few times, I am IN FAVOR of a certification program. There are quite a few models out there (the ones I am familiar with are mostly European) that offer pretty robust, well respected certification programs that can be used a starting point. The concerns I've voiced here are rooted in my fear that the current model is actually going to make the program less likely to succeed - which I think would be a shame.

    I have offered to volunteer with both the USEF and USHJA several times. Prior to their existence, I served on several committees for the AHSA and the "Fed" that followed (which eventually became the USEF.) I submitted my most recent application about a year ago, but never even got the courtesy of a response. Hey, that is their prerogative - they can't and surely don't want to take everybody - but I assure you, I've offered to help many times.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  4. #24
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    I think you misunderstand the intent, greatly. All of the shows in the USEF database are included, which means unrated shows as well, also "Outreach" shows which are small and local. You don't have to be life recorded or "going for points".
    Clearly you are not familiar with unrated show circuits.

    UN-rated show circuits do not report their results to USEF, and they are NOT in the USEF database.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJump View Post
    Clearly you are not familiar with unrated show circuits.

    UN-rated show circuits do not report their results to USEF, and they are NOT in the USEF database.
    I believe she is referring only to Outreach competitions- local shows which pay a fee to the USHJA and offer "Outreach" classes whose points are tallied for presentation of awards at year-end. Some local shows are also Outreach competitions; certainly not all of them.

    For what it's worth I'm in favor of a certification that demonstrates practical competence. I'm not even certain that completion of quizzes following videos is a step in the right direction compared to, say, the BHS. A database showing trainer results is useful. I'd also like to see the website display the trainer's complete history with USEF, including any and all suspensions and the reasons for them.
    "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep."
    - Harry Dresden

    Horse Isle 2: Legend of the Esrohs LifeCycle Breeding and competition MMORPG



  6. #26
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    TCP is a huge improvement over 'nothing,' but I certainly hope it doesn't devolve into a stamp of automatic approval for the status quo where winning at the big shows is seen to be the absolute best measure of excellence, when we are all harboring our suspicions about how those results are obtained (see the doping thread).

    Especially in light of the fact that suspension history (a comparable measure of ethical standards) has apparently been deemed too controversial to include in the ratings.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    I'm kind of amused at all of the bickering in this thread... so I'm just replying to the original post. Basically, certifications have always scared me a bit from both the horse world and the automotive world (that was scary). Anyway I like that you can search them, and think it would be a great resource for someone looking at getting into horses to find a trainer. Personally I did a search for trainers near me and found no one within 175 miles.... Which made me think that perhaps I should become certified. Which is almost funny, and would be a good example of an un-fit trainer with a certification....Actually I shouldn't say that It's just I have no money or resources to show and most of the kids I teach don't either so It may attract the wrong "clients" Which leads me to this could be as good or as bad as the certified people make it. As someone eluded to earlier lot's of people lie. I also feel like there should be a rating system.. this is a beginner trainer or this is an advanced trainer and you should have to test for that not a one certification fits all.



  8. #28
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    ...well that was a bit of a run-on paragraph...



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucassb View Post
    I have offered to volunteer with both the USEF and USHJA several times. Prior to their existence, I served on several committees for the AHSA and the "Fed" that followed (which eventually became the USEF.) I submitted my most recent application about a year ago, but never even got the courtesy of a response. Hey, that is their prerogative - they can't and surely don't want to take everybody - but I assure you, I've offered to help many times.
    I apologize for my defensive response. Thanks for volunteering to help and don't give up. Next time you try, let me know and I'll try to help.



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJump View Post
    Clearly you are not familiar with unrated show circuits.

    UN-rated show circuits do not report their results to USEF, and they are NOT in the USEF database.
    Yes, guilty as charged. I find the whole show rating (not to mention class rating) thing confusing. Like breeding, I'm grateful there are people who know what they are doing and care about such details, thankfully I don't have to be one of them. I just go and show where my trainer tells me.

    On the other hand, surely you see the difficulty in compiling and displaying statistics for shows that do not report their results to a centralized database. This is *not* to say these shows are not worthwhile, I've been to many of them in my career and they are awesome. But unless you're suggesting that these shows should be compelled to report their results (and all that would entail for how the shows are run) I don't really see a way around this.



  11. #31
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    No BNT's around me are on that list, just a couple local, smaller trainers.



  12. #32
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    I like the idea of trainer certification and do think the current is a small step in the right direction. However a less than clear picture of any "professional" in the database is presented due to not being able to search the Suspension list (current and historical suspensions including descriptions of infraction and penalty) or better yet, have that information listed right along with the rest of the trainer certification data being presented when a search is done.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberTenOx View Post



    I’m pretty sure suspended trainers are supposed to be removed from the list. I know they do background checks every year.
    Do you know exactly what the background checks entail?

    Donald Slaughter has (unpaid) court judgements against him ,that are horse related,and that were in place before he was suspended for not paying his show bills (and he was on the list).
    If a background check by USHJA didn't pick THAT up, it seems to be a rather pointless and ineffectual "background check".



  14. #34
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    i checked others with suspensions and fines and nothing appears.



  15. #35
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    So USHJA will have a list of "certified trainers" some of which could have been ripping off clients for years (and have unpaid court judgements against them for doing just that).

    With "background checks" like that, the USHJA better trot out some big disclaimers at the bottom of the page..



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pds View Post
    I like the idea of trainer certification and do think the current is a small step in the right direction. However a less than clear picture of any "professional" in the database is presented due to not being able to search the Suspension list (current and historical suspensions including descriptions of infraction and penalty) or better yet, have that information listed right along with the rest of the trainer certification data being presented when a search is done.
    if the suspension/disciplinary history only showed up for certified trainers instead of all members, that would provide even less incentive to get certified. For some.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    if the suspension/disciplinary history only showed up for certified trainers instead of all members, that would provide even less incentive to get certified. For some.
    That would be a good outcome, don't you think? (Having a list of trainers who aren't afraid of their records being made public).
    That is only true however if the purpose of certifying trainers is to benefit potential customers, and not the USHJA and the trainers themselves..


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    That would be a good outcome, don't you think? (Having a list of trainers who aren't afraid of their records being made public).
    I was thinking it might skew the list more towards trainers with less of a track record at recognized shows, where there are drug tests.

    My underlying thought was that if the suspension/disciplinary history is made searchable, it should be available on all members, not just the certified ones. And not just from the last few years, but from a long enough time period to observe patterns of behavior.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    I was thinking it might skew the list more towards trainers with less of a track record at recognized shows, where there are drug tests.

    My underlying thought was that if the suspension/disciplinary history is made searchable, it should be available on all members, not just the certified ones. And not just from the last few years, but from a long enough time period to observe patterns of behavior.
    You first thought is sad but true! However it sounds as if the list wouldn't be including many local trainers showing at unrecognized shows and the number of recognized shows the trainer attended would be listed.

    It would be great to have a record of suspensions/disciplinary history for all members ( and there is,sort of..).
    What I was referring to was the "background check" which seemed to be a spectacular failure, in the case of Mr. Slaughter.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    It would be great to have a record of suspensions/disciplinary history for all members ( and there is,sort of..).
    It may be technically on the public record, but it is not easy to find. Probably close to impossible for somebody relatively new to horses who didn't know how or where to look. When this subject came up on a previous thread, I did a Google search on somebody who has a bit of a history of USEF penalties. The most recent suspension popped up from a few years ago, but not the multiple penalties before that, at least not in the first 10-12 pages of results. How many newbies will look harder than that?

    What I was referring to was the "background check" which seemed to be a spectacular failure, in the case of Mr. Slaughter.
    That doesn't surprise me if his situation involves things outside the jurisdiction of the USEF. I'm not familiar with his story, but it might be asking a lot to expect USEF to check the financial or criminal or civil records of hundreds of people across the country.



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