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  1. #21
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    Snowfox? I would put down a colt if my only alternative was to spend thousands of dollars(on vet expenses) for an uncertain out come. I have had two such foals and had to put one down due to septic arthritis as the outcome(16 months old) and kept the other as a broodmare. You are naive to think we can wish positive outcomes or just throw money at them or that all compromised horses would be happy somewhat lame as a companion horse or that there are companion homes for all of them. I will keep mine safe as long as I can but someday I will pass on and I want those horses who can be well broke and useful to be secure and I want those who can't be to be safely put down. I am sorry if you think euthanasia is not acceptable. Not having euthanasia as an alternative can mean a lot of suffereing in the end. PatO


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  2. #22
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    Jun. 24, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    There are no "inspections" for many breed organizations -- anything with papers can be bred and its offspring registered. I don't blame the breeders I know who withheld papers -- they don't have any other mechanism for preventing poor-quality horses from being bred once sold, besides putting them down which seems extreme if the horse is otherwise sound. Of course, there's no guarantee the horse still won't be bred, but it is less likely without the papers.
    Actually, there is an option that one can do with their non breeding quality mares rather than withholding registration papers (which are important documentation to prove age and lineage). It's called spaying. In my mind, since so many people breed non papered mares anyway, this is the only/safest way to ensure that non-breeding quality mares stay riding horses and not broodmares. If I bred a mare that fell into this category, I would absolutely spay and not withhold papers.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistysmom View Post
    Actually, there is an option that one can do with their non breeding quality mares rather than withholding registration papers (which are important documentation to prove age and lineage). It's called spaying. In my mind, since so many people breed non papered mares anyway, this is the only/safest way to ensure that non-breeding quality mares stay riding horses and not broodmares. If I bred a mare that fell into this category, I would absolutely spay and not withhold papers.
    With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I would not spend thousands of dollars risking the life my mare just to prevent some idiot from breeding her. This is insane. "Spaying" a horse is not as simple of a procedure as a cat or dog. You take enourmous risk doing this.

    Or I could just hold the papers myself and prevent them from ever having registerable offspring. I think I would take the latter.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I would not spend thousands of dollars risking the life my mare just to prevent some idiot from breeding her. This is insane. "Spaying" a horse is not as simple of a procedure as a cat or dog. You take enourmous risk doing this.

    Or I could just hold the papers myself and prevent them from ever having registerable offspring. I think I would take the latter.

    Tim
    I don't know that it makes "no sense", not if you really, truly care. First, spaying isn't really that expensive. On these forums I got a bit of crap for not spaying my mare when I was worried about her being used as a broodmare, she has genetic problems and would have a very high risk pregnancy. But she was also high risk for any surgery at all because of her immune system issues. That said, I still worry about her all the time, I wish I would have had her spayed and taken the risk.

    I think we have a big problem in this country with people breeding mares simply because they have a uterus and they don't know what else to do with them...


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  5. #25
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    Jan. 26, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I don't know that it makes "no sense", not if you really, truly care. First, spaying isn't really that expensive. On these forums I got a bit of crap for not spaying my mare when I was worried about her being used as a broodmare, she has genetic problems and would have a very high risk pregnancy. But she was also high risk for any surgery at all because of her immune system issues. That said, I still worry about her all the time, I wish I would have had her spayed and taken the risk.

    I think we have a big problem in this country with people breeding mares simply because they have a uterus and they don't know what else to do with them...

    The last part of your comment should resound in all breeders ears. Just because it can breed doesnt mean you should.

    That being said, depending on age, they could go back to sport or be just riding horses. Divulging information on the breeding soundness or breeding value is important when and if you sell them. People will do what they will, but target your market correctly and your "once upon a time" breeding mare could have a very rich life in other ways.

    If they are broken down, well that's the hard decision you have to make. Put them to pasture and let them live out their days if you can afford to do that, or seek other options.


    Cheers
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
    WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I would not spend thousands of dollars risking the life my mare just to prevent some idiot from breeding her. This is insane. "Spaying" a horse is not as simple of a procedure as a cat or dog. You take enourmous risk doing this.

    Or I could just hold the papers myself and prevent them from ever having registerable offspring. I think I would take the latter.

    Tim
    Problem here is that our breeding culture may not be strong enough for someone who just wants a foal? Raise it for themselves and who doesn't care about papers.

    This I think is part of the problem with the bigger picture, sadly to say.
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
    WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense at all. I would not spend thousands of dollars risking the life my mare just to prevent some idiot from breeding her. This is insane. "Spaying" a horse is not as simple of a procedure as a cat or dog. You take enourmous risk doing this.

    Or I could just hold the papers myself and prevent them from ever having registerable offspring. I think I would take the latter.

    Tim
    Problem here is that our breeding culture may not be strong enough for someone who just wants a foal? Raise it for themselves and who doesn't care about papers.

    This I think is part of the problem with the bigger picture, sadly to say.
    Hyperion Stud, LLC.
    Europe's Finest, Made in America
    WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
    Standing Elite and Approved Stallions



  8. #28
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    but. shouldn't folks have the right to breed their mare if they so choose? especially if they will keep it?

    it is those breeders who breed large numbers of inferior horses that are the problem....


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  9. #29
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    Keeping back papers doesn't prevent breeding, unfortunately. Responsible dog and cat breeders have always done "pet quality" sales with exhaustive contracts (of course, their pet quality is probably far and away better than irresponsible breeders breeding stock)

    I have been told that contracts aren't terribly enforceable.



  10. #30
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    A friend of mine once bought a nice little mare as a riding horse. The mare was injured a year or so later, and she decided to breed her. Imagine her shock when the vet came to do the repro exam and told her the mare had been spayed. This small fact had not been divulged by the previous owner (we later found out that this person apparently spayed many of her mares so she didn't have to deal with the hormone issue). And no, my friend did not have a repro exam done as part of the PPE because she was buying the mare primarily as a riding horse.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hippolyta View Post
    I have been told that contracts aren't terribly enforceable.
    It costs money to enforce contracts - legal fees, court costs, etc. - so many people in the horse world don't bother unless there is a significant sum of money involved.



  12. #32
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    Oct. 11, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I don't know that it makes "no sense", not if you really, truly care. First, spaying isn't really that expensive. ...

    I think we have a big problem in this country with people breeding mares simply because they have a uterus and they don't know what else to do with them...
    I think if there is more demand for spaying mares, the vet world might develop less expensive ways to do it. It is certainly less expensive than breeding! Would be nice if there was some permanent, universally recognized way of indicating a mare had been spayed, though.

    Re second comment: when I first had my mare, I got a lot of people asking me if I would consider breeding her and even a couple of stallions offered! The horse market tanked soon after, and those questions/offers stopped. Said mare is well-bred and gorgeous but her legs are not very good, so the answer has always been no -- even when she had nearly a year off because of a suspensory problem. To me the reason for that year off was the reason not to breed her!

    If I ever needed to sell her, I'd have her spayed first. There's no reason to do it otherwise as she's not very "mare-ish".
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine


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  13. #33
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    Jun. 24, 2012
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    I have spoke to several vets about the risks of spaying and all said that any surgery in horses involves more risk (postoperative colic, hemorrhage, infection etc.). Also, it can sometimes be a more expensive surgery. One needs access to a vet with experience in this area and some just don't have it so there may be some traveling involved. It is done and more often now than before. The few cases that I know about, had problem free surgeries and recoveries. It is, however, not recommended if you are just using it to change the behaviour of your mare.

    I think if one has a mare with an issue (health or conformational etc. etc.) where she is suitable for a useful and happy life but should never be bred, spaying is the most responsible thing for a breeder to do (aside from keeping her forever) as it is the only way to prevent someone else from breeding her down the road.



  14. #34
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    as someone else mentioned, I wonder if new & easier techniques would arise if there is a demand. maybe even non-surgical methods like they have for people (blocking tubes) or chemical spays.

    http://www.thehorse.com/articles/145...-safer-methods



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    but. shouldn't folks have the right to breed their mare if they so choose? especially if they will keep it?

    it is those breeders who breed large numbers of inferior horses that are the problem....

    "The right"? I suppose in the universal sense they do. But when you give away a very nicely bred, great moving horse with good conformation that should not be bred due to genetic problems, with the specific condition that the horse is not to be bred for the safety of the mare and responsibility to the gene pool, that's a different story.

    I can imagine other breeders and people have had the same issue, a person can't just keep every horse with a uterus. The responsible dog breeders require you spay or neuter the pet quality dogs they sell at a discount or give away, but could that be done with horses? Unlikely.

    Anyway, I just think it's a unfortunate dilemma in the horse world.


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  16. #36
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    If someone has a horse that they believe should not be bred, ridden, etc they lose control of that the second they pass ownership to others. so if one wanted to control the outcome the only way to do it is to keep control of said animal.

    but my comment was not in response to yours - it was more because these threads always start pointing fingers at those that breed only once or twice - when in fact it isnt those folks that are the problem - it is the puppy mills breeders.....

    but, culling should not be seen as bad. if the horse is so bad it can't serve any purpose then it should be put down


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  17. #37
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    Jun. 16, 2007
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    Default What are culls?

    I think it goes back to the definition of culls. In breeding halter QHs or Arabs for example over 90% of a LOT of breedings are culls. Most head directly to kill or have nearly hopeless futures. In most of our cases breeding for sport horses there is a range of markets even if we are breeding for upper level competition in one sport. Fortunately most of the people I see quoted in the US (but not all) consider that breeding involves making sure all the sound horses you create need a place. To breed only for a professionals horse...an Olympic horse...would mean the majority of your horses might have temperaments or athletic ability too challenging for the majority of riders. That would limit the places a horse you bred might find a home. I actually have seen a lot of this. To breed horses that will find a place AND have them be upper level is a challenge but I think most of us consider futures and breed accordingly. My two septic foals are just bad luck but the horses who I breed and find good places for are good planning. PatO



  18. #38
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    "The right"? I suppose in the universal sense they do. But when you give away a very nicely bred, great moving horse with good conformation that should not be bred due to genetic problems, with the specific condition that the horse is not to be bred for the safety of the mare and responsibility to the gene pool, that's a different story.
    But you didn't give away the horse, did you? You sold it. One thing is a horse with genetic problems, but spaying a mare just because You think she's unfit for breeding?

    There have been quite a few cases of stallions who weren't approved by their registrations but still covered a few mares, and in the end ended up being reviewed and approved for the quality of their foals. Everybody makes mistakes, and if I feel my mare would be a good mother, it is my decision to breed her, not the person who sold her to me.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMSL View Post
    But you didn't give away the horse, did you? You sold it. One thing is a horse with genetic problems, but spaying a mare just because You think she's unfit for breeding?

    There have been quite a few cases of stallions who weren't approved by their registrations but still covered a few mares, and in the end ended up being reviewed and approved for the quality of their foals. Everybody makes mistakes, and if I feel my mare would be a good mother, it is my decision to breed her, not the person who sold her to me.

    If the previous owner wanted to go through the expense of spaying, it's their right just as much as it is the right of someone to geld a male horse. It's one of the perks of being the OWNER. The point is that once the horse is sold, they no longer have any say, so if they want to enforce their desire for a mare not to be bred, spaying is an option - as much as gelding a colt that the owner/seller doesn't want to see bred.

    I agree that if more people spayed mares, the technique would improve and the cost would come down, however I would probably not spay unless it was truly medically necessary - perhaps to prevent a pregnancy in a mare where it would be life threatening, for instance, just because it is currently so invasive and expensive.

    I used to work at a horse-themed dinner show, and I cared for a team of driving horses. One was a mare and she was spayed because when she was in season the driver got sprayed with urine.... It allowed her to do her job without distraction and without being a distraction (in an environment full of stallions) and kept people willing to drive her, but she was hospitalized for about a week and out of work for nearly a month. Not quite as quick and simple as gelding a colt!
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMSL View Post
    But you didn't give away the horse, did you? You sold it. One thing is a horse with genetic problems, but spaying a mare just because You think she's unfit for breeding?

    There have been quite a few cases of stallions who weren't approved by their registrations but still covered a few mares, and in the end ended up being reviewed and approved for the quality of their foals. Everybody makes mistakes, and if I feel my mare would be a good mother, it is my decision to breed her, not the person who sold her to me.
    YES I DID give the mare away. She had both OCD and suspected EDM (which cannot be determined until a necropsy). She was mildly neurological and it was believed to be genetic. Not only that, but her twin sister had one foal with a severe limb abnormality, and another that was also neurological.

    I am really only posting because frankly I regret not having her spayed or even euthanized. But she's the sweetest mare in the world, was light riding sound if managed correctly, and I had someone that wanted her. But not a week goes by I don't worry about her, even though she's in a great home and a friend keeps an eye on her.



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