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  1. #21
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    Jul. 13, 2006
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    459

    Default

    Dressage OP has another good point. If you undercut an OP price wise, or if you give away images, people do come to expect that all the time. As you gain experience and value your work more, or as the costs of such necessary things as maintaining, repairing, and replacing equipment begin to come into play, it is often very difficult to justify to those clients why they should be paying more for your services to cover those costs.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    12,751

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    Quote Originally Posted by tma View Post
    Dressage OP has another good point. If you undercut an OP price wise, or if you give away images, people do come to expect that all the time. As you gain experience and value your work more, or as the costs of such necessary things as maintaining, repairing, and replacing equipment begin to come into play, it is often very difficult to justify to those clients why they should be paying more for your services to cover those costs.
    And then you become the photographer at the show that no one is buying from but is spending all day there taking photos, because some other photographer who did not pay the shows vendor fees is selling photos really cheaply.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2005
    Posts
    103

    Default Private Horse Show Photographer

    Thanks for the visual. But there are instances where a scab ( just can't invent a better term) has created a problem for an OP and management. Over the years there have been many photographers who just show up at a show and shoot any and all exhibitors and make their photos available for sale on a website or thru FB ....and then don't deliver the purchased photos. The exhibitor then calls the OP AND management with the complaint that " I bought photos from your show and your photographer never delivered them" I have received many of those calls....from both exhibitors and management only to explain that it was not us. Exhibitors then come on this or similar sites and complain about " the photographer" at some show...and it is assumed to be the OP.There are many other reasons that those photographers should be excluded from shows ( lack of insurance, lack of knowledge and civility in dealing with rider/horse issues,etc). But the courtesy afforded the OP allowing him to do his best to earn a reasonable return on his investment of time and money is primary. We do go to shows where we are not the OP but only to photograph our private clients. We do not shoot ANYONE who is not already a client and we do not exhibit our work or solicit new business at other's
    shows....and we welcome anybody who has private clients to attend our shows....as long as they refrain from relieving themselves in public...We draw the line there.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2013
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    16

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    As a photographer that is both and official photog for shows and a private one for clients at shows. The main reason I get hired to take photos for a clients barn is turn around time. Most horses at rated shows are for sale, and taking 2+months for photos to be posted online is silly considering those horses may already be sold. Im also a show photographer at shows as well, and i usually have photos posted online 48 hours after the show. I dont see any problem with people bringing their own photogs, why? its simple, I have shelled out 5k+ on my equipment and took a long time to find the perfect angle to shoot a horse for the best apearence, most people with a entry DSLR snap and hope to get something, i dont feel encrouched on since i know quality will aways be better than quantity. I think pro photographers need to start stepping up with the times, if photos get posted online in a reasonable time frame, and adding different prices for photos(think web only use) then sales will increase. JMO.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
    Location
    AIKEN SC
    Posts
    243

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    Quote Originally Posted by tma View Post

    And yes - many venues do charge a commercial vendor fee. If you are there to shoot with the intention to make $$, you'd be subject to that fee also, the same as an OP, or the guy selling tack on the grounds, or the feed supplier. Those fees can be substantial.

    .
    Yes, often there is a vendor fee for the Official Show Photographer but that usually gives the OSP the right to have a vendor booth on the grounds.

    The only way another photographer would be subject to those fees would be if they signed an agreement with the show. In that case they'd probably have the right to have their own booth LOL

    Times have changed. The quality of even entry level cameras are much better. Exhbitors want pics for FaceBook, not so much for prints.
    Prices for 'Pro' print photos have become huge.
    Some 'Pros' will only shoot your horse if you pay in advance for a product that you don't even know if you'll want. Others only have private clients. Those
    'Pros' should not care if another photographer is picking up those clients that they don't want.

    Some exhibitors want pics from the barn to the schooling ring to the show ring and back to the barn. The 'Pros' don't provide that service to the general public.
    But a photographer who is shooting for a barn will take all those shots, 'Pro' or not.

    And if the non pro is costing the OSP business because the non pro takes better photos then that's another issue entirely. And it does happen.

    All business changes constantly.
    No matter what the line of business some Professionals change their practices based on market changes. Some don't....
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2005
    Location
    Behind a big white lens
    Posts
    484

    Default

    In our case, I have a trailer with viewing stations onsite at the shows. Our time to post images is minutes, not hours or days. We no longer post photos online due to the rampant image theft that was occurring. When we did, 99% of the time photos were posted online the same evening that the show took place. I wish I only had $5K invested in this enterprise. Unfortunately, in the fb age, good enough is good enough if it's free or ridiculously cheap.
    “Photography to the amateur is recreation, to the professional it is work, and hard work too, no matter how pleasurable it may be.”-Edward Weston


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun. 26, 2001
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    From the show management side here. We hire an official photographer for our shows. One 'company' with many team members. They work their tails off to cover all the arenas during the day. They pay to be there and are covered by insurance.

    If another photographer approaches them they normally are cool and will discuss what is happening in the way of private photos. If someone comes onto the show grounds and just starts taking pictures to sell; they notify us and we ask the photographer to stop immediately. If they refuse, we ask them to leave. This is not negotiable.

    Last year we had a situation where a 'person' decided to make some money this way. After popping up and taking a shot and spooking a horse on course we were notified and the person was asked to delete their photos by management and to please leave or put their camera away permanently. This person had approached a number of riders earlier in the day to sell their photos, the riders reported him.

    Show management has a responsibility to protect it's vendors. We don't let someone sell saddles from their trunk out in the parking lot and we don't approve of people trying to make money off of our venue without either insurance coverage or permission or a vendor fee. Come and take as many photos as you want for yourself or your friends, but the minute you try to sell them you will run afoul of us.
    Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2005
    Posts
    103

    Default private Horse Show Photographer

    Of all the times we have posted re this issue, that was the first post by a show manager. Thank you. I have tried to make other photographers understand that almost every show we do has that policy and is beyond proactive in informing and enforcing.The Devon HS as a statement to that effect in their prize list.A good show manager will support their vendors as long as those vendors continue to provide a service to exhibitors and a value to the show re their needs for media and promotion. A show manager like this poster probably has his pick of photographers and other vendors...and he should. Again, thanks.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar. 16, 2000
    Location
    Chatham, NY USA
    Posts
    4,100

    Default

    Thank you, Brookes. Wish there were more of you!

    And RedlineGuy, you are so correct. Even for prints, but especially for FB, 'good enough' (translated you can identify horse & rider) is not only 'good enough', but BETTER THAN having to pay a pro's pricing.
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2013
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Thank you everyone for your advice! Especially when it comes to the topic of pricing my work and expecting the cheapest. My only thought on that is no photographer just starting off charges the same full price as a skilled, professional that has years already in the business. You have to start off somewhere! I did have a plan eventually to raise my prices as more was expected of me but that is another story.

    I will make sure to contact show management/the official photographer from now on to get an okay for the private shoots of my barn and others. As I stated I didn't want to jepordize my photography business in any way so I'd like to do it right. I'd like to think my friends are buying my photos because they like them, not because they want to damage the present OP's business! But I do understand why their prices are high but in some aspects I don't because its more hurting their business then helping it in some cases. I realize that a lot of your comments are very true, but not necessarily pertain to be; I'm planning to not advertise myself at the show, not intentionally disobey the posted rules or what is asked of me by the show management or official photographer, and not take pictures of everyone, but instead the ones you asked me personally to do so. Just wanted to take pictures, have fun (legally) and hopefully make some sort of money.

    And as for the comment of me over using actually, I don't think I'd eat the rotten food, actually

    - G
    Last edited by atilthia; Jan. 23, 2013 at 03:34 AM.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    604

    Default

    I realize I'm jumping in here at the tail end of this conversation, but I just wanted to comment on your pricing thoughts. If your work is as good as a pro who has been doing it for a long time, there is no reason why your pricing should be any less.

    If you're serious about starting a career in photography, then join PPA (Professional Photographers of America) and research image pricing. They have had a great series of articles recently about how to calculate pricing. You may determine (like many of us pro show photographers) that it is really difficult, if not impossible, to actually make a living shooting shows. And when you're calculating it, you're not only taking into affect the cost of printing an 8x10, but also....

    - travel time
    - shoot time
    - post processing time
    - income tax (state & federal)
    - event insurance fees
    - event vendor fees (if you're paying them)
    - marketing costs associated with the event
    - meals
    - cost of print making
    - shipping
    - cost of hosting online proofing per event
    - 30% of your sales away for savings. Ok, maybe just 10%.
    - computer hardware and software upgrades
    - equipment upgrades
    - I also have booth staff who run viewing stations for me, so I have to consider their time and expenses as well.

    At the end of the year, if you've priced yourself correctly, hopefully you also have earned enough for cost of living expenses (food, utilities, mortgage/rent, car payment), food, clothing and incidentals for you and your family and maybe, just maybe *gasp* money to pay for something else that you want to do like take a vacation. Obviously, one smaller show usually isn't going to cover all those things or equipment upgrades, for that matter. But you should be calculating sales such that a small percentage of your take home pay (after all the other expenses, savings, etc.) is set aside so that when the shutter goes out on your DSLR, you have the money to have it repaired or replaced and upgraded to a new camera.

    No wonder I'm leaving the world of the OP to do privately hired shoots only. As Redline Guy and ccoronios have both mentioned, when any "good enough" pic is better than paying the pro for their experience, its hard to justify the time involved let alone any other expenses -- regardless of how much we love being there.

    To the original poster, I suggest you carefully consider what you are getting yourself into and whether or not you truly have the desire to quit whatever job you're currently working at that pays your bills. If you have no intention of quitting your day job, educating yourself beyond pointing and shooting, appropriately licensing and reporting your business to the state & federal govt, collecting and reporting sales tax, etc....well, then maybe you should consider yourself a hobbyist instead of a new pro photographer?? Just a thought.
    Last edited by horsepix76; Jan. 23, 2013 at 11:42 AM.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2006
    Posts
    459

    Default

    When I am at a show where I am not an OP and am asked to take photos of someone, I politely decline, explain that I am not a photographer for the show, and refer the person to the official photographer for the show for their photos. This has included the trainer for my own horse asking me to shoot others in their barn. (I have plenty of opportunities to photograph them at "home").

    If I would like to photograph my own horse competing where there is an OP, I ask for permission to do that from the show management and the OP ahead of time.

    When at a show (where I am not an OP) to help support a friend who is competing, I will still introduce myself to the OP and explain that I do not intend to shoot. I've also been known to purchase an image or two from the OP as a gift for my friend.

    If an invitee to a wedding were to come to me and ask me to come and photograph the bride and groom getting ready, get the professional angles photographing the ceremony, etc because they thought the photographer that the bride and groom hired charged too much, I would certainly decline.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    604

    Default

    tma - in my experience you are very much in the minority. I would love it if people were as considerate as you.

    The #1 reason I am cutting shows this year is because many trainers are either taking their own pictures or have a working student/show mom/etc. who is taking "good enough" pictures at the show. This past year, NOT A SINGLE FAUXTOGRAPHER or "scab" as ponypix called them, introduced themselves to me. NOT A SINGLE ONE. I wear a shirt that says "Official Photographer" on it, along with carrying pro-equipment (which no one else had), I've advertised and contacted competitors, etc. So they really have no excuses.

    I *love* spending days at horse shows -- I know, call me crazy -- but I simply can't make a living doing it any more, so now I get to find some other way to make a living with my camera and the years of knowledge accumulated in my head.



  14. #34
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2009
    Location
    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
    Posts
    2,812

    Default

    All I can say is "Thank goodness for ammy photogs at [ the biggest show in the county]". Never once has a decent picture been taken of any of my horses but one by the pro. Not of my lead liner, not of my HB horses, not of my performance. I have been graced with friends giving me the pics, thank goodness.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2013
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by horsepix76 View Post
    If you're serious about starting a career in photography, then join PPA (Professional Photographers of America) and research image pricing. They have had a great series of articles recently about how to calculate pricing. You may determine (like many of us pro show photographers) that it is really difficult, if not impossible, to actually make a living shooting shows. And when you're calculating it, you're not only taking into affect the cost of printing an 8x10, but also....

    - travel time
    - shoot time
    - post processing time
    - income tax (state & federal)
    - event insurance fees
    - event vendor fees (if you're paying them)
    - marketing costs associated with the event
    - meals
    - cost of print making
    - shipping
    - cost of hosting online proofing per event
    - 30% of your sales away for savings. Ok, maybe just 10%.
    - computer hardware and software upgrades
    - equipment upgrades
    - I also have booth staff who run viewing stations for me, so I have to consider their time and expenses as well.

    At the end of the year, if you've priced yourself correctly, hopefully you also have earned enough for cost of living expenses (food, utilities, mortgage/rent, car payment), food, clothing and incidentals for you and your family and maybe, just maybe *gasp* money to pay for something else that you want to do like take a vacation. Obviously, one smaller show usually isn't going to cover all those things or equipment upgrades, for that matter. But you should be calculating sales such that a small percentage of your take home pay (after all the other expenses, savings, etc.) is set aside so that when the shutter goes out on your DSLR, you have the money to have it repaired or replaced and upgraded to a new camera.

    No wonder I'm leaving the world of the OP to do privately hired shoots only. As Redline Guy and ccoronios have both mentioned, when any "good enough" pic is better than paying the pro for their experience, its hard to justify the time involved let alone any other expenses -- regardless of how much we love being there.

    To the original poster, I suggest you carefully consider what you are getting yourself into and whether or not you truly have the desire to quit whatever job you're currently working at that pays your bills. If you have no intention of quitting your day job, educating yourself beyond pointing and shooting, appropriately licensing and reporting your business to the state & federal govt, collecting and reporting sales tax, etc....well, then maybe you should consider yourself a hobbyist instead of a new pro photographer?? Just a thought.
    Thank you so much for the advice. I will check out those sources you listed. Although I never stated I wanted to become an office show photographer, I was just hoping to take private shoots on occasion. Portraits are more what I'm aiming at. But some of these comments make photographing sound like such a terrible job! I'd rather be doing this then some office hours. I'd like to see myself a functioning professional in the future. I've been a hobbyist for years and would like to invest in my work.

    And I e-mailed the said show manager of the show several clients asked me to photograph at and they said no. So that's that.
    Last edited by atilthia; Jan. 23, 2013 at 02:09 PM.



  16. #36

    Default

    My only thought on that is no photographer just starting off charges the same full price as a skilled, professional that has years already in the business. You have to start off somewhere! I did have a plan eventually to raise my prices as more was expected of me but that is another story.
    In a good business model, you would not show or sell your work until it is professional quality. Would a restaurant sell inexpensive food because it is it is just practicing at cooking and is not licensed yet?



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by atilthia View Post
    I've been kinda confused exactly if this is correct or not, or if illegal or not. And by illegal I mean can I get in serious trouble for it.

    I've just recently tried to start a photography business, doing portraits and horse photographs, sometimes at shows. I've photographed shows both with and WITHOUT a photographer, but i've handled myself differently. At a show without a photographer, I took photos of everyone and advertised my work as much as I can. For shows with a professional, I was ASKED by a person or two to take photos of them so that they could buy them (either because they liked my work or weren't happy with the professionals quality or crazy prices).

    Is that technically illegal and stepping on the foot of the professional if it's technically a private agreement? I do not take photos of anyone else at the shows with other photographers with intention to sell, only the ones that you could argue 'hired' me?

    I'm not trying to break any rules intentionally, but I'd like to know if what i'm doing is actually illegal. I'm just starting out in the business and I'm not quite sure what is and isn't correct. People are already asking me to come to other shows and take photos of them, so I want to know if I can continue safely or if I need to stick to the shows without a photographer present.

    Thanks!

    - G
    I know that you sometimes need to have insurance to shoot shows, and if you may need permission from riders to use photographs of them. And of course, at shows with a professional photographer, ask them first out of courtesy, you can also tell them if you are there to photograph a specific person so that they don't photograph them.



  18. #38
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
    Location
    AIKEN SC
    Posts
    243

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    Quote Originally Posted by katestephenson45 View Post
    I know that you sometimes need to have insurance to shoot shows, and if you may need permission from riders to use photographs of them. And of course, at shows with a professional photographer, ask them first out of courtesy, you can also tell them if you are there to photograph a specific person so that they don't photograph them.
    Insurance is not legally required although it's a good idea. The show may require it of the OSP depending on their vendor agreement. But keep in mind that the OSF may be in the ring, not railside and has more risk of spooking a horse.

    Signing an entry blank allows the Federation or the show to use any photos for their own purposes in promoting the sport or the competition. Most of the complaints from the 'Pros' is not about owners taking photos of their own horses.
    The show will not prohibit an owner from doing this no matter what the 'Pros' tell you. So you really dont need to get permission from yourself LOL. Show photographers do not need permission to shoot anyone. Non Official Photographers who are shooting for their barn have permission from that trainer or owners.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2013
    Posts
    30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by katestephenson45 View Post
    I know that you sometimes need to have insurance to shoot shows, and if you may need permission from riders to use photographs of them. And of course, at shows with a professional photographer, ask them first out of courtesy, you can also tell them if you are there to photograph a specific person so that they don't photograph them.
    Not sure about the insurance thing, but I had permission from the riders, it was the show I was wondering. And as stated earlier, I did e-mail show management and told them about my situation and they asked me not to so I will not be doing so!

    SIDE NOTE: I think I will be sticking to photographer-less shows and portraits from now on. There is a photographer-less show that goes on every other month at the stable I board at that I think I might stick to, and since I know most of the people riding I probably would get more business from it.

    As for my prices I'm planning on altering them now, although it's more geared toward portrait sessions and etc.

    Thanks again,
    - G
    Last edited by atilthia; Jan. 24, 2013 at 08:34 PM.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar. 16, 2000
    Location
    Chatham, NY USA
    Posts
    4,100

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    Atilthia, please take this in the manner it's meant.

    The day someone falls off/gets hurt/horse gets hurt/spooks/doesn't win and they decide it's your fault (camera click, you scared the horse [standing in the same place you'd been standing the previous two classes they were in], or you forgot the course and almost walked in front of the jump)- you WILL be sure about the insurance thing. You'll wish you'd had it. It's quite revealing how fast 'friends' can unfriend you.

    I think you're making a good decision to stick with the local shows where there is no OP to 'get your feet wet'. But do make your prices comparable to others in your area. One tends to do more processing with portrait photographs than with horse show photos, so a reasonable price variation would be in order. Just be specific. Have two price lists or make the EVENT and the PORTRAIT pricing very obvious.

    You also might want to try a 30 day free trial with Equine Photographers Network - there's a wealth of information on there.

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


    1 members found this post helpful.

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