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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Default Is it wrong of me to withhold papers? Slightly long...

    I'll try to make this as concise as possible.

    I traded a registered, branded WB mare in September for a horse Mr. Heinz could ride, a QH mare owned by an acquaintance of mine. The QH was advertised as not registered BUT with all necessary paperwork in hand to be sent in to get her registered, owner just didn't have the necessary cash to do it. I have saved conversations between her and I where I explained to her how important it was to us to get the QH registered and her stating that she hadn't been able to afford it, prior to the sale.

    We have a signed contract that includes a sort of "give back" clause, essentially a first right of refusal but without a price tag. Two separate contracts, one for each horse. Unfortunately, I did not address the issue of exchanging papers in the contract, as I've always done that at the same time as the bill of sale, but that isn't how things occurred with this transaction.

    Acquaintance told me a few weeks after the exchange that the papers "weren't where she thought they were" and that she would need to look for them. No problem, let me know when you find them. You can probably see where this is going, now.

    Fast forward to now. I've contacted her multiple times with no response, until I finally sent her a message a few weeks ago stating in no uncertain terms that she WILL NOT be getting the papers for the WB mare she now has until she can produce the necessary paperwork to get the QH registered. This was met with some excuses and arguments about how she sold the mare as grade (untrue, ads specifically stated that she could be registered and that all paperwork was in hand to do so) and has been too busy to look for them, her mother must have moved them, etc. When I did not budge and reminded her of her advertising strategy, she eventually said she would look for them again.

    I normally would send the papers with the horse and recognize how important it is to keep the two together. However, in this particular situation and given the contract stating that the mare is to come back to me if this girl ever decides she doesn't want her (so little chance that the mare will be sold to another party without papers), is it wrong of me to withhold the papers on the WB mare? If I give them up, I have no leverage otherwise to attempt to get the paperwork I need. She lives just a few miles away and we have many of the same friends, so I keep pretty good tabs on what is going on.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 20, 2005
    Location
    Desert Southwest
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    6,208

    Default

    Yup. I'd hold onto the WB's papers till this gal provides the paperwork for the QH. She did, after all, state the horse was registerable.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2003
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    916

    Default

    I think you're safe in withholding the papers. You're withholding consideration equivalent to what she's withholding on the stated deal.

    Erica.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
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    Default

    Does she even need the WB's papers for what she is using the mare for? Wondering if your strategy will even work, that is why I am asking.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
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    15,856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Does she even need the WB's papers for what she is using the mare for? Wondering if your strategy will even work, that is why I am asking.
    This would be my worry as well. She didn't see the value in making sure all was set with the QH's papers--why would she care about the papers for the horse you traded?

    That said, it sounds like that's your only leverage here, so use it.

    And perhaps call the AQHA to get an understanding of what has to happen to obtain papers if this woman can not pony them up?



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2008
    Location
    Longing to be where I once was.....
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    2,157

    Default

    I would hold the papers as well, especially since this is a trade deal where she could come back to you. If you like the QH and actually do get the paperwork and actually do get her registered, then maybe I would send the WB papers to her if she was needing to change ownership of the mare.



  7. #7
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    And perhaps call the AQHA to get an understanding of what has to happen to obtain papers if this woman can not pony them up?
    I second this!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2006
    Posts
    3,224

    Default

    If the QH is "riding age" it will cost a bunch of money and hoop jumping to get her registered if the paperwork ever shows up!!! Just a thought!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
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    3,372

    Default

    Do you realize that registering a riding age AQHA horse is something like $2500?

    Yes, I am with you - I would withhold the papers on the mare until she can produce what she owes you in the form of the registration application on the QH.
    Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
    Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz 57 View Post
    However, in this particular situation and given the contract stating that the mare is to come back to me if this girl ever decides she doesn't want her (so little chance that the mare will be sold to another party without papers),
    The contract also states that she's selling you a registrable QH, and that's not working out so far.

    Whatever you do, don't make a decision based on the idea that a contract she's already failing to uphold is going to keep the mare safe down the line.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2007
    Posts
    1,801

    Default Think of the warmblood mare...

    A warmblood mare without papers is more at risk that a warmblood mare with all her papers. Don't condem the mare, admittedly this is not a good situation and perhaps you just want to say contact me at any point you rehome the warmblood mares as she is proven not responsible with registration issues. She isn't alone in this, it is a common problem. You should have understood the probems before you entered in the arrangement I guess...hindsight being 20/20. We all learn...I have from this. ANyway take care. PatO


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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rideagoldenpony View Post
    Do you realize that registering a riding age AQHA horse is something like $2500?

    Yes, I am with you - I would withhold the papers on the mare until she can produce what she owes you in the form of the registration application on the QH.
    AQHA runs a special pretty regularly that allows registration of horses of any age for a few hundred dollars. So yes, I'm aware - I checked into it prior to agreeing to this whole deal, had the conversation with her about getting the papers ASAP because they were running that exact special shortly after we did the trade - and it never happened.

    columbus, I am thinking of the mare - I have good, solid tabs on her and will continue to - I have a lot of connections around here. Arguing about what has already happened will unfortunately not change the circumstances today.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
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    Default

    Oh, good to know about the specials! I'm not an AQHA member, so I wasn't aware of the specials -- just had sticker shock when I looked it up a while back!!
    Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
    Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Default

    Well, this is no longer an issue.

    I just made plans to pick up the WB mare and drop off the QH mare tonight.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


    8 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2009
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Honestly, I'm not sure why you decided to return the QH but it sounds like the papers have never been "in hand and ready to register" the QH and that it was just used as a tactic to help get the horse sold/traded.

    I think it is wise to get your WB back and move on from there, there are PLENTY of QHs out there if Mr Heinz is set on a QH :-)


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  16. #16
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    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KentuckyTBs View Post
    Honestly, I'm not sure why you decided to return the QH but it sounds like the papers have never been "in hand and ready to register" the QH and that it was just used as a tactic to help get the horse sold/traded.

    I think it is wise to get your WB back and move on from there, there are PLENTY of QHs out there if Mr Heinz is set on a QH :-)
    I did not decide to return the QH, but circumstances arose where it became in the best interest of the WB mare for me to take her back. The QH mare is going back to the original owner because my pasture can't support that many horses.

    Mr. Heinz is disappointed, but I told him we'd look for another horse for him next summer if he still wants one.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    14,493

    Default

    So.... QH owner ends up with no horse, you get your WB mare back and some prior owner of QH gets his/her horse back?

    I assume the person who owned QH when you bought him can't afford all this, so at least all the horses are getting their (large) butts covered.

    I think you were right to keep your leverage. And it also surprises me when people don't register their horses on time or lose their paperwork. How does that even happen? Clearly, the horse papers go in the Important Stuff Forever folder that also has your passport, social security card, birth certificate, vehicle titles and such. Doesn't everyone do it this way?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  18. #18
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    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Oregon
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    Default

    No, original QH owner is the one that has the WB. So, essentially the horses are just being traded back. WB needs to be seen by a vet (gone lame 3-4x in 4 months, they elected all times not to have her seen by a vet to diagnose) and I am willing to shoulder that cost and any necessary rehab if she returns to my ownership. Preferably before whatever is ailing her becomes a permanent issue.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
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    Default

    Jingles for your mare.
    Jingles that Mr. Heinz finds a perfect horse too.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2006
    Location
    WNY
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    Default

    Sorry things didn't work out, OP, but good on you for taking the mare back and doing what she needs to recover!
    Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
    Do not buy a Volkswagen. I did and I regret it.
    VW sucks.


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