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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecrklaveness View Post
    However, I don't like glue-ons, nor do most barefoot gurus I know about.
    Which 'guru?'

    Are there even gurus anymore?

    I thought the barefoot guru was SO last year?


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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Which 'guru?'

    Are there even gurus anymore?

    I thought the barefoot guru was SO last year?

    LOL! I don't mean the author-gurus like Ramey and Strasser. My "personal" gurus - my barefoot trimmer (one of the very best in the Oslo area) et cetera. By "guru" I mean the professionals I associate with regularly who have decades of experience within the field. Those are the people I trust!
    Equine portraits in oil and pencil at www.facebook.com/ecrklaveness



  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    erckle why doesn't steel shoe allow expansion?

    Since it seems I am a little new to this topic perhaps you could explain?

    I have seen the 'wear marks' on used steel shoes that shoe expansion...not to mention a good farrier would never nail past the quarters to the foot is pretty free in the back half. It seems a lot freer than a hoof cast even!

    It seems to me there is a tool with a different purpose and it is a matter of finding the correct tool?

    As far as boots-if they work for the owner's intended purpose and the horse does not suffer, then by all means...

    however I would not be fooled into believing there is no change in movement. In the same way a horse has a change in movement with a shoe or a cast or a different trim.

    Change the foot and the influence on it and you change the movement. It is not a judgment just an observation of simple...what...physics? Where is Bloomer with his vector drawings when you need him.

    Not saying anyone is bad for using boots, just trying to keep it real.

    Since it appears I'm becoming the big "for" person within boots here, I'd like to point out one little fact: I actually use boots very little. My big use for them is in winter, when we get two-three months of snow and ice, and I stud my boots with 6x Best-Grip 1200 in each (a common practice here). The horse uses boots on all four for trips on the ice; without boots it's impossible to be barefoot in winter. In summer, I actually prefer to use boots very little. I live in an area with a lot of asphalt and gravel, and I'm aware that hoof-wise I have a horse with "genetic gold", but he does manage perfectly fine without boots most of the time unless I'm doing a lot of canter work. I don't see why boots HAVE to be a part of a barefoot regime.
    But shoes vs. boots? Boots any day
    Equine portraits in oil and pencil at www.facebook.com/ecrklaveness


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    erckle why doesn't steel shoe allow expansion?
    I have seen the 'wear marks' on used steel shoes that shoe expansion...not to mention a good farrier would never nail past the quarters to the foot is pretty free in the back half. It seems a lot freer than a hoof cast even!
    This may be a topic where angels fear to tread but I'll make a non partisan attempt to explain what I was told at the Epona shoe institute out in CA. There was a very interesting lecture series from a lot of data they'd collected over years and one thing that was discussed was the flexion of the hoof...how it flexes barefoot versus shod in steel versus in the Eponas.

    This is their discussion, their theories, etc not mine and not a BUA thing at all..but it is quite interesting...no attacks for me to bring this up please.

    OK, so when a horse is shod in a steel shoe, we know that the heels expand due to the wear you see on the shoe itself if it's not nailed too far toward the heels. What is interesting is that according to the Epona folks hooves when bare do not function like that...the entire capsule flexes..not just the heel....so in other words, a bare hoof does not flex the same way in the heels. Their opinion as to why this is is that the steel allows the heels to slide open rather than to grip the ground the way a bare hoof does thus changing HOW it flexes.

    Their intention with the Eponas was to mimic the function of a bare hoof. Interestingly, even nailing on Eponas with no epoxy, I do not see the same heel wear as you do in steel shoe so perhaps there is something to this. I could see how the glue would not allow the heels to move when you use it but I don't see the same grooves in the plastic as you'd see in steel. So anyway, just some more information. I find all this very interesting and really would love to see more studies comparing function and how things we do to the hooves change function.

    Casts are very restrictive in the heels. I have seen heels restricted in growth over a 4 week application of casts...literally cuts into the heel and damage to the heels. I use them with caution and only for a couple weeks at a time.



  5. #105
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    DDB-now that I buy! I am not saying in any case that the expansion allowed in a steel shoe is correct-but there is some in any case.

    Correct 'expansion' is actually distortion in all directions-agree?



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I understand BUT I have also had the worst injuries ever sustained to my horses in stalls. Top of the list is a probable broken pelvis when cast and a leg through a bucket handle that ended in a torn hind suspensory. Career ending pasture accidents? Nada. Knocking on wood.

    With enough space and the right friends, horses can live out and look good, too. No cuts and gashes here except for under rare and odd circumstances. Thats a sign there is a problem
    And I have experienced the exact opposite. I know of 3 horses that have fractured legs out in the field with other horses (2 needed to be put to sleep), and I have never known a horse to have a bad injury in a stall (except a horse that was crazy and literally tried to CLIMB over the stall to get out and took the door completely off it's track having it land on top of him. He got a few scraps and cuts, but most horses don't try to climb out of the stall like that!)



  7. #107
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    I dont have the heel problem in casts but have adapted my trim and casting method to avoid it. Horses can go 5-6 weeks in them with no problem.

    Interesting thing - I am not entirely sure that *expansion* is always good. In some of the pathological hoofs I cast, *limiting* hoof mechanism/expansion seems to make the horse sounder. In a sound, correctly functioning hoof of course it is a good thing.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Thanks for sharing your experience hank. Where are you? I'm sorry they didn't work and I realize they don't for everyone.

    My Gloves from last year look barely worn! That is funny how different our experiences are!

    I live near Tucson, AZ. When I moved here 5 yrs ago, of the 7 people I ride with, only 1 horse was shod. Everybody was using boots. Now ALL of us have shoes.

    Some have steel and some have Epona shoes. All the boots had the troubles I mentioned in the previous post. Renegades worked the best, but cost was too much to only have them last 30 days. I ride every single day. 4 to 8 miles. Boots got lots of use, and some of them were fit up at Easycare, so you can't pull out the "they weren't fit correctly" card.

    The terrain around here is so abrasive that steel shoes wear out for me in less than 5 weeks. Aluminum and Epona lasts about 3, so the expense is out of the question, which is too bad, since I went to "Epona School" and love the product. Totally bare is not an option if you are going to ride daily.

    I just feel like there should be some balanced reporting. Boots are NOT all sweetness and light...I wish it were so, but alas, as Rick always says...It Depends!
    Last edited by hank; Jan. 27, 2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: spelling



  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post

    Correct 'expansion' is actually distortion in all directions-agree?
    Yes sort of. Think of the whole hoof capsule flexing but the rim/wall does not...kind of like a plunger in a toilet..sorry for such a crude comparison but that's all I could come up with on short notice!


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I dont have the heel problem in casts but have adapted my trim and casting method to avoid it. Horses can go 5-6 weeks in them with no problem.

    Interesting thing - I am not entirely sure that *expansion* is always good. In some of the pathological hoofs I cast, *limiting* hoof mechanism/expansion seems to make the horse sounder. In a sound, correctly functioning hoof of course it is a good thing.
    I'd love to hear about your technique if you are willing to share!

    I agree on the expansion also. I've seen the same thing happen.



  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    I live near Tucson, AZ. When I moved here 5 yrs ago, of the 7 people I ride with, only 1 horse was shod. Everybody was using boots. Now ALL of us have shoes.

    Some have steel and some have Epona shoes. All the boots had the troubles I mentioned in the previous post. Renegades worked the best, but cost was too much to only have them last 30 days. I ride every single day. 4 to 8 miles. Boots got lots of use, and some of them were fit up at Easycare, so you can't pull out the "they weren't fit correctly" card.

    The terrain around here is so abrasive that steel shoes wear out for me in less than 5 weeks. Aluminum and Epona lasts about 3, so the expense is out of the question, which is too bad, since I went to "Epona School" and love the product. Totally bare is not an option if you are going to ride daily.

    I just feel like there should be some balanced reporting. Boots are NOT all sweetness and light...I wish it were so, but alas, as Rick always says...It Depends!
    Thanks for the detailed reply hank. That's very interesting! I was stationed years ago at Ft. Huachuca not far from you and I remember how it was there. I can see your area brings some major issues to hoof care! I had some great rides on the base stables horses.

    I agree that "It depends" also. I was only sharing my own experiences. I have certainly seen the boots not work as well for some horses.

    Our ground here is quite sandy and when we take our horses to the mountains with rocks and hard ground, we use the Gloves. We've had very good luck so far. We've ridden in the Adirondacks of NY, Mt. Rogers in Virginia (major rocks) and Massanutten VA as well as the clay/rocks of the Uwharrie National Forest in NC.. However, we've not, like you, had to deal with a very abrasive terrain every day...so that would seem to be a big difference.

    T



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Yes sort of. Think of the whole hoof capsule flexing but the rim/wall does not...kind of like a plunger in a toilet..sorry for such a crude comparison but that's all I could come up with on short notice!
    It distorts in 3 directions and that is the problem with hoof boots in general and even moreso with those that bind the heel bulbs-which would be all boots but the Renegade glue ons.

    Is it a 'bad' thing? I dunno...but it is a 'thing'...it IS change how the hoof functions.

    I am not making judgments on anyone using the boots or shoes-it doesn't really matter to me what someone does with her horse.

    But it does matter when either is 'sold' as something that does not change hoof function or the flight pattern of the horse-because either will do that just as a trim can change those things.

    It is the denying of those things that gets me a little ruffled, I guess you would say, because those statements are obvious (to me) but in no way shooting someone that makes the choice.

    I just wish someone had told ME to think about these things years ago...



  13. #113
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    Leah,

    I guess I'm not seeing it the same as you are or having trouble visualizing what you are saying...the bit about the hoof boots restricting the expansion of the foot. While I can buy that it does to some degree change function as does anything attached to the hoof, these boots are not rigid like casts. They are flexible and the hoof is inside them just like your own sneaker. They will flex as the hoof does. While they are snug, they are not so snug that they don't stretch and give. I think of them like a good hiking boot on my own foot... a nice protective sole and extra traction and enough around the foot to keep them in place and still...but not hurting the foot and it's function.

    Now something very rigid I could see your point and would agree...but something as flexible as all the boots I've used, not so much.

    Even when the easyboot gloves are glued on, you do not glue the heels to the boot...only the walls...so the heels are not restricted in their ability to flex inside the boot.

    Can you see why I'm not quite following you?



  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecrklaveness View Post
    I'm afraid I don't agree -
    Why are you afraid?
    Better or worse than shoes? Are you kidding me? A shoe contracts the hoof and doesn't allow it to expand upon contact with the ground and do its job as shock absorption.
    You are demonstrably incorrect. Question: Where does most of the expansion/contraction of any hoof, shod or barefoot, occur? Regardless, there is not, to my knowledge, even one scintilla of research that supports your preposterous claim. In fact, Dr. Jeff Thomason of Guelph University did a study that showed that a shoe does a better job of dissipating shock/concussion than a bare hoof does.
    Hoof boots BOTH allow expansion of the hoof AND have comparatively soft soles.
    It Depends.
    Hoof boots any day for me!
    Whatever floats your boat. 'Course, it should be about the horse's needs, not yours, right?

    I'm very interested in the new Norwegian-produced Equine Fusion.......they seem like the absolute very best option on the market these days.[/QUOTE]
    And you know this because....? Perhaps you would provide us with the extensive market testing of all the products out there that you have done that enables you to make such a bold statement. Absent that, how about providing us with all the product comparison research undertaken by others under the same parameters.



  15. #115
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    I never said boots limit expansion. I said they limit distortion in 3 directions.

    I am not familiar with the kind of sneakers to which you are referring. I own Epics and Renegades and none come close to the flexibility of sneakers...

    And I do own hiking boots and they ARE less flexible than barefoot.

    Sorry...I am not following your line of thinking-but it really doesn't matter...you have your approach and it is working for you so it might just be easier to ignore or dismiss my observations?




  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    This is their discussion, their theories, etc not mine and not a BUA thing at all..but it is quite interesting...no attacks for me to bring this up please.
    'Course they(the Craigs) do have a pecuniary interest in the outcome of their studies/theories, hypotheses.......
    OK, so when a horse is shod in a steel shoe, we know that the heels expand due to the wear you see on the shoe itself if it's not nailed too far toward the heels. What is interesting is that according to the Epona folks hooves when bare do not function like that...the entire capsule flexes..not just the heel....so in other words, a bare hoof does not flex the same way in the heels.
    Did you or anyone think to ask them how a rigid structure(the hoof capsule) where it is [basically] rigidly attached to p3, flexes? What I [routinely] see is that when such an event occurs, the laminae disinterdigitate which is always a pathology of one kind or another. The reason the hoof, from the quarters rearward, can [marginally] expand and contract is that it is not rigidly attached to bone. And shod, booted or barefoot, all hooves will do a majority of their expansion/contraction around the coronary margin and heel bulbs. And much of that is linear in nature.
    Their opinion as to why this is is that the steel allows the heels to slide open rather than to grip the ground the way a bare hoof does thus changing HOW it flexes.
    Well, we all know [or should know] what is said about opinions.
    Regardless, what part of the hoof is usually the first to break away? Why do you suppose that is? And, when you've seen enough hooves, you'll realize that the heels of a bare hoof often show some of the same type of wear patterns as seen on the shoes/hooves of shod horses.
    Their intention with the Eponas was to mimic the function of a bare hoof. Interestingly, even nailing on Eponas with no epoxy, I do not see the same heel wear as you do in steel shoe so perhaps there is something to this.
    Or perhaps the Eponas are actually doing, incrementally, more harm than good.
    I could see how the glue would not allow the heels to move when you use it but I don't see the same grooves in the plastic as you'd see in steel.
    How many steel shoes and/or plastic/urethane have you closely examined. Break the number down by fronts and hinds.
    Casts are very restrictive in the heels. I have seen heels restricted in growth over a 4 week application of casts...
    How is the growth restricted?
    ......literally cuts into the heel and damage to the heels.
    Cuts in where? What is the damage observed?



  17. #117
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    Not that it matters but I am pretty sure any owner of a bare horse has tried the wedge one heel experiment?

    In other words, on uneven terrain, a hoof can (and perhaps should) displace on one side independently of the other? Maybe not?

    If it IS supposed to how does it do that in shoes or boots?

    If is it NOT then why does it do that bare? Is that some kind of pathology inherent to all bare horses?

    Serious question.



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    I never said boots limit expansion. I said they limit distortion in 3 directions.

    I am not familiar with the kind of sneakers to which you are referring. I own Epics and Renegades and none come close to the flexibility of sneakers...

    And I do own hiking boots and they ARE less flexible than barefoot.

    Sorry...I am not following your line of thinking-but it really doesn't matter...you have your approach and it is working for you so it might just be easier to ignore or dismiss my observations?

    Ok, I'll buy that they limit distortion to a degree depending on the boot and how it fastens. I was mainly talking about expansion of the hoof, so we were talking about different things but I still maintain that the newer glove type boots allow for distortion also. Perhaps not AS MUCH as barefoot would but isn't all hoof protection a trade off of some kind?

    I was not talking about a horse sneaker...just using that as a comparison to the Glove boot.

    Take a look at the Glove boot which has no fastener at all and slips over the hoof as an old fashioned rubber galoshes did over your nice shoes when it rained. Same sort of thing. The galoshes did not crush your shoes but flexed with them because of the rubber they were made of had some give. That is how the gloves are..quite different from the older Epics. I really hated the Epics too..no wonder you hate all boots if you think they are like those dinosaurs. As I said earlier...lots of innovations and improvements being made...they've come a long way.

    This is the Glove:

    http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots...oot_glove.aspx

    So yes, I can see that the Epics due to the rigid fastener would restrict distortion but I wasn't even thinking of those boots as nearly no one uses them any more. I was talking about the Gloves and the glue on which are the glove shell without the gaiter. So we were never even talking about the same thing really.

    Thinking on it some, none of the newer Easycare boots are any more rigid than using velcro as a closure. Some less so. The older models with clamps and stuff are losing ground fast since the lighter Glove and newer trail type boots came out.

    The Renegades are quite different though and I can see them being a bit more limiting to distortion of the hoof capsule but in some ways allows more hoof flexibility than the easyboots due to the way the heel activator is detached from the front part of the boot. My experience with Renegades is more limited. I know a lot of folks love them.

    I'm hardly ignoring or dismissing your observation am I if I'm on here discussing it with you??? Why the attitude just because I am not seeing it the same as you do or disagreeing?



  19. #119
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    why are accusing me of having attitude?

    I think saying-really you don't have to 'buy' is far from attitude. I mean it. Just sharing and you can have an interest or ignore. Just fact. No attitude.

    I have seen the gloves. Thank you however for the link.

    And I am NOT talking about the closure. The SOLE is the issue. When the horse loads on the ground, his hoof does not receive the same feedback.

    That is the influence that dictates the ability of the bulbs to move independently.

    Heck that lack of feedback is probably why over-trimmed or chronically laminitic horses appear sound in boots! (OK that will get some emails to complain).



  20. #120
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    Default To Hank

    Just have to say, I'm from Tucson, lived in Oracle, rode daily, rode barefoot In Catalina State Park, Oracle and MT Lemmon areas, did endurance training rides and didn't have any problems except with iron shoes. Actually had a horse diagnosed with ringbone, Vet said he was done, retired him and pulled his shoes. See website for the details. He became completely sound barefoot and went back into full daily work in that abrasive terrain.
    Moved to CO, which is just as abrasive as AZ. Still have barefoot horses, ridden here in full work, sound and they do not need boots. IF I were to up their mileage to 25 or so regularly, I would boot as we advise our clients to do if they ride that many miles. Have now 250 to 300 barefoot horses in DH's care, including the winner of the 2012 CO Mustang Makeover, FEI 100 mi. endurance rides ( completions, wins, top 10's and or Best Condition) and the 2012 CO Reserve Champion Stock Horse Association horse.
    Sorry you have had troubles. I've heard that unfortunately there aren't good barefoot pros in the area. Having a horse boot fitted by EC isn't the whole answer. That answer is: Diet, environment, competent trimming, boots and appropriate pads when needed.
    Funny that Garrett Ford, owner of Easy care in Tucson and from Tucson, now in the perfect terrain of Durango CO, managed to win the 2012 Tevis 100 mile ride in those crappy Easy Boot Gloves. Too bad he doesn't ''use'' his horses, nor does our 100 miler, top 10 national endurance rider year after year, client Tennessee Mahoney or the other above mentioned clients.
    Carry on. The usual bullying, ridicule and condescension ( same old tired, trite stuff going on for YEARS now from the usual suspects, which is why I seldom visit here anymore) will be happily laughed off. One doesn't have a successful and growing business year after year if you aren't providing an excellent service. Word gets around, esp in the tightly knit horse community. If the horses aren't sound and useable, our business would, and would deserve to be, toast. www.owlcanyonhoofrehab.com



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