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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Native View Post
    Ptownevt, thanks for posting the article and please ignore the naysayers. You don't owe anyone an apology and don't be intimidated.
    Au contraire, s/he most certainly does. The statement made was ignorant, stupid, moronic, incorrect, denigrating, ridiculous, duplicitous. That you seem to support it, speaks volumes about you.

    I learned long ago not to waste my precious time here arguing with people who will never change their POV.
    LOL. Do you even bother to read, with comprehension, that which you write?

    DH studied alongside our friend Sossity ( the trimmer in the article) for the 2 years Pete was giving clinics with Dr. Bowker and Katy Watts.
    It is a never ending source of amusement to see what folks will waste their money and time on.

    As Pete said: ''The hoof boot is the horseshoe of the 21st Century''.
    Its not the first time he's been wrong...........And, I'd wager it won't be the last........

    The Peters' farrier is now a self described ''convert''.
    www.owlcanyonhoofrehab.com.
    Perhaps had he been a better farrier, he wouldn't have had to convert.........


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Mar. 15, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeFigs View Post
    J-Lu, I'm curious why a horse on sand would need shoes. I grew up in central Texas, with sandy loam soils and most of the time my horses were barefoot and did fine, so I get the loam comment. But what about sand?

    I now live in Colorado and the ground here is HARD. The dryer it is, the harder it gets, too. Nevertheless, my horse usually goes barefoot through the winter. I don't worry about him developing snowballs in his feet and teetering around on them. (That is, IF we get snow...) He's still in full training and will get shoes again in the spring.

    This strategy usually works well for him, though last winter the ground was so hard and so dry, he got sore-footed and went back into shoes earlier than I'd have liked.
    Hi Threefigs,
    I can speak directly to the El Paso/southern NM area sand. Most horses start off barefoot and can live in the sand barefoot just fine. But once the arena work starts or becomes more intense, the abrasive sand can wear away the hoof faster than the hoof grows, especially in the winter. Not all horses, but some. Of note, this applies to sand rings, which are plentiful in Texas. Also, the sand can be abrasive to the bulbs when the horse is working under saddle. My current mare originally went into shoes because of the sand arena/environment I started her in. Later, she went back to the desert for breeding and I pulled her shoes for two years. However, when she started back into work she got short and ouchy. Extensive vet workup showed no problem but her heels were low and the sand rubbed her heels. She went back into shoes and the problem resolved. This is just one example but I've seen again and again that horses end up in shoes because of abrasive sand. I don't think anyone really WANTS to pay for shoes rather than a trim! I don't!
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation



  3. #63
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    I look forward to the day when trimmers actually use some critical thinking . . .
    Why would you ever expect science and critical thinking to prevail among cult followers? The attraction that draws them into the cult, like flies to manure, is the authority of celebrity endorsement and testimonials, not common sense.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Its not the first time he's been wrong...........And, I'd wager it won't be the last........
    Well he was wrong when he thought he could cut it as a farrier. I admire him for admitting that. But a man's gotta eat. May as well take the easy prey.



  5. #65
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    I look forward to the day when trimmers actually use some critical thinking when observing the impact of boots on the heel bulbs and all of the soft structures in the back of the foot.
    LMH, can you please explain this in more detail? I never went the hoof boot route as I would have needed too many pairs, and getting sorted with the sizes just seemed too much for me to deal with. If anyone was having issues, my farrier would have come back out to shoe. Plus we've dealt with mud all year long. I couldn't see good boots not rubbing in these conditions.

    I'm not sure I entirely agree with the sand theory. My arena is sand. I also ride on roads. Nobody's feet were stripped bare. And last year I had issues in the mud with wear on hinds and my younger filly. The ground is very abrasive. When I sorted the diet these things improved dramatically. Iron is an issue people don't think about. The content is so high in most feeds plus its already present in the ground and most water. This inhibits the uptake of the important minerals such as copper and zinc. I use a supplement called bone boost with vit e and flax and mag ox, and salt. No iron content. I'd really love to put everyone on pro hoof balance. We will see. Made a tremendous difference.

    But if I had one competing in the upper levels I'm sure management would have to be different and I probably wouldn't get away with what I am now. Don't know. Look I know I sound like I drunk the Kool aid but its been a learning experience so far. Oh and when we took shoes off, farrier was happy to just leave the feet to remodel the way they needed to be. No trim immediately after the shoes were taken off. No shaping or immediate balancing. Then we got to see more of what was going on. I won't go into too much detail as its boring!

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Terri, Having stayed out of this fight, I almost hate to post now but I can tell you that I've ridden extensively in hoof boots and not caused my horses any harm. If fitted correctly, they will not hurt your horse, crush the heels, etc.... Like a poorly applied shoe, a hoof boot that does not fit can cause problems but one advantage the boots have is that they are taken off after use versus left in place for 6 or more weeks.

    I'm sure someone here will tell you that they cook the feet and cause all sorts of propioception and gait problems and all that...but generally these are not people who actually have put a lot of miles on the back of a horse wearing them so keep that in mind. I have not noticed any problems nor have I heard of any. My horses move beautifully in them with no tripping, etc.. and we have been on some seriously steep and rocky rides in the mountains.

    There is a good reason so many endurance horses are wearing them and if any horse was going to be damaged by them, it would be these elite athletes putting in 100 milers over rough terrain. I would think if they were so bad, you'd not see them getting more and more popular with big wins at rides like the Tevis and so many Top Ten finishes.

    I just wanted to add that like any tool we use, there are advantages and disadvantages and limitations. Hoof boot design has come a long way since the original easy boot came out and they continue to make innovations.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Feb. 5, 2010
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    For those who haven't read it yet, here's a link to the full article:
    http://naturalbalancetrim.com/upload...oot_Peters.pdf



  8. #68
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    Feb. 18, 2006
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    Thanks for posting the link to the article. Having now perused it several times, I can say that IMO there are some good parts but they are overshadowed by the nonsense including the series of photos of Squishy's foot, before and after. To the uninitiated and the dilettantes it feeds right into what they want to believe. To those of us with a more jaundiced eye, the problem(s) with the photographic record quickly become apparent, starting with the first photo and the nasty, incorrectly cared for hoof that is shown.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    There is a far bigger problem with photos-anyone that has been around enough horses will know that a pretty foot is not always a sound foot and vice versa. Unless you see the movement attached to the photo, the story is not complete.

    That said, the horses in Peters' barn have one thing many barefoot horses do not-owners and trainers that understand correct movement.



  10. #70
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    I have to confess I was pleased to see Pete Ramey has backed off his "no shoes ever" stance. Perhaps we have our former poster here Kim to thank for that? I don't know as I don't hang out with that crowd and am independent of any organizations but Kim was high up in Ramey's AHA organization and she was pretty determined to force change. I do know that many of the trimmers from that group have learned to shoe with Eponas. I like to see that some of the extremism is disappearing as I think it gives a lot more credibility to the people involved and the rest of us for that matter.

    Leah, you have to admit too that in that barn if the hoof boots were causing major problems to those horses, the people there would have enough horsemanship to recognize it. The Gloves they talk about are the boots I've used mostly and they are quite different from the old clunkers that came before them. Now the older style boots I agree had many more issues quite often but I do run into people on trails that still use them and seem happy with them however you won't find someone using Cavallos or Old Macs at the Tevis Cup.

    I also read the article and kind of wondered what the hullabaloo was all about. So what...a top trainer went barefoot....it's not like they are insisting everyone else pull their horses shoes..and in dressage, that is really quite a departure from normal as most of those upper level horses are shod. I've always believed that many could go bare and do well and it's nice to see someone proving that.

    Speaking of outrageous I remember when the O'Connors jumped in with Pat Parelli and that amazed me more than anything as I actually knew both of them from my eventing days and thought they had more sense than that.



  11. #71
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    DDB, I so agree with your entire post. Shoes, boots, barefoot, casts, they are all tools available to us to make and keep horses sound and working. I wish there were more emphasis on this, for the good of the horse.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    DDB would you say most 100 mile riders are using the glue on version of boots? Or the gator version?



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    For those who haven't read it yet, here's a link to the full article:
    http://naturalbalancetrim.com/upload...oot_Peters.pdf
    Thanks for posting the link.

    If her horses are showing more freedom of movement through the shoulder now that they are bare, it's likely that the breakover was too far forward. I've seen it with my own horse, years ago with his first set of shoes. He looked like a freaking Hackney pony, and that's with an apology to the good moving Hackneys out there. Fault of the farrier and the trim, not the shoes btw, although a break from shoes from time to time isn't a bad idea.

    Trimming is even more important with shoeing than bare. Less margin for error. We used a farrier from spring until Dec last year and he provided us with a textbook example of what happens over time when the heels aren't trimmed enough, on both horses. The problems are made worse with shoes because the hooves cannot do any corrective self-trimming at all. We're trimming our horses' feet again now and will be from now on. When my big horse goes back to work and needs shoes DH and I are just going to learn how to nail Eponas ourselves.



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    I have to confess I was pleased to see Pete Ramey has backed off his "no shoes ever" stance. Perhaps we have our former poster here Kim to thank for that? I don't know as I don't hang out with that crowd and am independent of any organizations but Kim was high up in Ramey's AHA organization and she was pretty determined to force change. I do know that many of the trimmers from that group have learned to shoe with Eponas. I like to see that some of the extremism is disappearing as I think it gives a lot more credibility to the people involved and the rest of us for that matter.

    Leah, you have to admit too that in that barn if the hoof boots were causing major problems to those horses, the people there would have enough horsemanship to recognize it. The Gloves they talk about are the boots I've used mostly and they are quite different from the old clunkers that came before them. Now the older style boots I agree had many more issues quite often but I do run into people on trails that still use them and seem happy with them however you won't find someone using Cavallos or Old Macs at the Tevis Cup.

    I also read the article and kind of wondered what the hullabaloo was all about. So what...a top trainer went barefoot....it's not like they are insisting everyone else pull their horses shoes..and in dressage, that is really quite a departure from normal as most of those upper level horses are shod. I've always believed that many could go bare and do well and it's nice to see someone proving that.

    Speaking of outrageous I remember when the O'Connors jumped in with Pat Parelli and that amazed me more than anything as I actually knew both of them from my eventing days and thought they had more sense than that.
    The Parelli/ O'Connor partnership didn't last that long, did it? I thought David mostly used their methods with The Native, who was a hard-core difficult horse. David said the groundwork helped with him. Didn't really sound like the work was something you'd need to do with most horses though.



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    DDB would you say most 100 mile riders are using the glue on version of boots? Or the gator version?
    Yes most are in the glue ons at that level but I do know you have folks finishing 100 milers in the Renegades, another excellent boot, as well as the gaiter kind of Glove. Renegade makes a neat glue on that does not cover the heels at all. Here's a link to it:

    http://www.renegadehorseboot.com/glue-ons/

    An article on the Renegade site on people using them at the Tevis:

    http://www.renegadehorseboot.com/tevis-2012-update/

    The glue ons, unlike glue on shoes, are not meant to stay on for 6 weeks. Typically they train in Gloves or barefoot and then glue on the Glove shells for the competition. They generally come off on their own in a week or so or are removed using a screwdriver to break the bond along the walls. The problem, of course, with leaving them on is moisture. They've come up with some ingenious ways to keep that problem at bay like packing the boots via holes in the sole with Equipack and foam.

    Another thing you'll see at these endurance rides is riders in shoes putting easyboots over top of their shoes since they really protect the whole hoof and not just the rim/walls. The obviously is not good for the boots and wears them out quickly but at that level of competition the horse's welfare is much more of a concern.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    DDB, I so agree with your entire post. Shoes, boots, barefoot, casts, they are all tools available to us to make and keep horses sound and working. I wish there were more emphasis on this, for the good of the horse.

    Thanks Gail! We are definitely in agreement on this point. I like having so many options as horses and the needs of their owners are all different.



  17. #77
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    Feb. 18, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    That said, the horses in Peters' barn have one thing many barefoot horses do not-owners and trainers that understand correct movement.
    And here I thought you were going to say "owners with money".....



  18. #78
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    Mr Burten...do you not knows about nests and hornets?



  19. #79
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    I thought it was a pretty good article and much more "fair and balanced" than average with quite a minimal odor of Kool-Aid, all things considered.
    Click here before you buy.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Mr Burten...do you not knows about nests and hornets?
    Indeed I do. And I also know about these:

    http://www.interstateproducts.com/wa...FehDMgodDUkAeA
    http://www.dadant.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id=767
    http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Shr...JE8?Pid=search




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