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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Do saddleseat riders need to do piaffe, one tempi's, and canter pirouettes?
    Are we getting into this again? The 'because I ride dressage everything I do is better and right and everything else is wrong' school of thought?

    A horse is as light or heavy as the rider makes it. Horse ridden in the biggest, fattest snaffle known make for a much harder mouth than a more severe bit ridden with feather soft hands.

    Dressage is supposed to be harmony between the horse and rider. A subtle communication that is all but invisible. If you have to have your horse feel like 50 tons in your hands, than that is not light and invisible and certainly not an example of self-carriage.

    If your horse needs that much help between hands and mouth through piaffe, one tempi's and canter pirouettes, then you need to go back and work on self-carriage, engagement behind, and lightness. Maybe say first level/second level work. And that, my dear, is the problem with dressage today.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    hahahahahaha

    If someone could get ONE lateral movement out of this horse Id be in shock.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AhBXrMbiiA

    Watch the 1.16 segment of the other "gaits". To me it looks so silly but not as bad at TWH I guess.

    If you need the shoes to do it I dont think it should be done period.
    It's done flatshod as well. That is called the Rack, and it's incredibly comfortable. What's unnatural to one is beauty to another. As I said before, it's the same principle, applied differently. You'd be surprised how much lateral work these horses actually can do. Don't judge it until you've tried it.

    I've been told by saddleseat riders that people ride dressage because they can't ride anything else. Dressage as a sport isn't necessarily considered wonderful in other disciplines. They bring up rollkur, bad lower level riding, bad hands, bad balance, and riders who are afraid to ride with anybody else in the ring, etc.

    Consider looking at something for it's merits. You might find you'll learn something.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  3. #123
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    Hello Everybody

    I used to post on this thread several years ago, but now I kinda hang out in the Off Course Barn.....

    I've read all of your comments, and I'll tell you what I saw as a common denominator...Shock!

    Well, my family has seized upon this emotion and challenge the Big Lick Horse in its prestigious show and class and showed our keg shod horse (what he is 362 days a year) to show the two side by side, they made me put on a 1/2 pad in order to be called a padded horse. no problem, that's a common therapeutic pad.

    Here is the first time we did this in 1999, then in 2007, and the last time 2012..we are not there to be that baddest horse, or win the class, we were there to put what they do on the front page.

    The shock value I saw with you today was what fueled the sound horse movement we now see out here.

    Everything you would desire to know about the TWH, its strong points and its hall of shame can be found here on this website, articles, and the most video on any website.

    http://www.walkinonranch.com/celebrationrides.html

    The day before yesterday we started a Dressage en Gaite FB page, as an alternative to the Big Lick

    Dressage; As Applied to the Gaited Horse

    If you are on FB its Jennie Jackson; Dressage en Gaite

    I would be happy to answer any queries you may have, here's my private email if you would like to write me there

    natetheskate99@yahoo.com

    The Preacher


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    "I've been told by saddleseat riders that people ride dressage because they can't ride anything else."

    Oh hmm. Ive ridden saddleseat and owned a horse who did show hack before I got him. Ive done the deed but without the shoes. Im sure at the time I talked trash about dressage riders because we all thought it looked easy and seeing that 50'th 20 meter circle that gal still got wrong somehow? To me back then dressage riders looked dizzy and sad LOL>

    Years later when I was trying to sit my first real extension I could have died for all of the amount of inabilty this long time rider had/has.

    Dressage will humble even the best of riders. There are no 2 year old futurities at the top for a reason
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    "
    Dressage will humble even the best of riders. There are no 2 year old futurities at the top for a reason
    True. But each disicpline has it's own merits. I love dressage. Rode and showed seriously as a junior. Took that background into the hunters. Used to do piorettes with my hunter. The dressage trainers loved him, his training, and how he went. Kept telling me I should ride some tests. Wasn't interested. Been there, done that. Wanted to jump at that time. I also love watching the reining horses warm up. I'm enjoying using that dressage background on the gaited horses.

    I just really object to people telling me that one discipline is so much harder than another. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that opinion carries a lot more weight when you've actually DONE something else.

    At least you have. More power to you on those big extensions, and your dressage journey.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #126
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    Dont get me wrong thoroughbred I know plenty of dressage riders who would have a heart attack on a horse that can rack.

    At the same time I know saddle seat riders who would be maimed by the upper level wb's.

    I still hope to do some breed stuff so its not like Im a convert that doesnt remember where I came frome
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    Dont get me wrong thoroughbred I know plenty of dressage riders who would have a heart attack on a horse that can rack.

    At the same time I know saddle seat riders who would be maimed by the upper level wb's.

    I still hope to do some breed stuff so its not like Im a convert that doesnt remember where I came frome
    LOL. It is fun to play, isn't is.



  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    Are we getting into this again? The 'because I ride dressage everything I do is better and right and everything else is wrong' school of thought?
    Ooh wee, where did that come from? I was asking for info only. My only familiarity with saddle seat showing is walk, trot, rack and canter.



  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    I just really object to people telling me that one discipline is so much harder than another. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that opinion carries a lot more weight when you've actually DONE something else.
    Don't underestimate the well-roundedness of the average upper level dressage rider! Our current Gold Medal Olympic team is comprised of two former eventers and one former show-horse rider. Most trainers I know who are worth their salt have real depth to their horse experience, as do many posters on this board.

    Also, this is explicitly a forum that discusses, critiques and celebrates dressage - so responses are bound to reflect that! Don't dismiss posters just because they have chosen to concentrate on one discipline for decades.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.



  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Preacher View Post
    Hello Everybody

    I used to post on this thread several years ago, but now I kinda hang out in the Off Course Barn.....

    I've read all of your comments, and I'll tell you what I saw as a common denominator...Shock!

    Well, my family has seized upon this emotion and challenge the Big Lick Horse in its prestigious show and class and showed our keg shod horse (what he is 362 days a year) to show the two side by side, they made me put on a 1/2 pad in order to be called a padded horse. no problem, that's a common therapeutic pad.

    Here is the first time we did this in 1999, then in 2007, and the last time 2012..we are not there to be that baddest horse, or win the class, we were there to put what they do on the front page.

    The shock value I saw with you today was what fueled the sound horse movement we now see out here.

    Everything you would desire to know about the TWH, its strong points and its hall of shame can be found here on this website, articles, and the most video on any website.

    http://www.walkinonranch.com/celebrationrides.html

    The day before yesterday we started a Dressage en Gaite FB page, as an alternative to the Big Lick

    Dressage; As Applied to the Gaited Horse

    If you are on FB its Jennie Jackson; Dressage en Gaite

    I would be happy to answer any queries you may have, here's my private email if you would like to write me there

    natetheskate99@yahoo.com

    The Preacher
    Kudos to you, sir, and your family. My hat goes off to you!
    *friend of bar.ka

    "Evidently, I am an unrepentant b*tch, possible trouble maker, and all around super villian"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    Until the $$ goes away, this is going to continue.

    Look how long it took AQHA to really *do* something about the HYPP horses.

    $$ keeps this going.

    Think of the damage which is being done to the horse mentally and physically. Well, we can all see that.

    But others see that as money to be made. Stud fees, foals, $2 ribbons, bragging rights, boarding, training, tack shops, vendors, etc. They do not care, they want the $$ in their bank accounts.

    So sad.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Ooh wee, where did that come from? I was asking for info only. My only familiarity with saddle seat showing is walk, trot, rack and canter.
    My apologies. I'm a little quick off the trigger on this subject. Since I left riding serious dressage, I get blasted by dressage riders looking down their nose at me when I've branched out and tried something different.

    I guess I tend to be a little bit defensive. Again, my apologies.



  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Do saddleseat riders need to do piaffe, one tempi's, and canter pirouettes?

    No, they don't. Riding saddle seat is about a horse's gaits, how comfortable, beautiful and or/fast they are is depending on the class, as well as it's conformation, quality and manners.

    Actually many saddle seat trainers use lateral movements at home when training, as Thoroughbred1201 pointed out, just as another discipline such as hunter/jumpers uses these same basics in their training. Are you going to ask for these lateral movements when riding your five gaited show horse for a sales video? Um, hell no. Your going to show the horse doing the best trot, slow gait, and rack it can do!

    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    hahahahahaha

    If someone could get ONE lateral movement out of this horse Id be in shock.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AhBXrMbiiA

    Watch the 1.16 segment of the other "gaits". To me it looks so silly but not as bad at TWH I guess.

    If you need the shoes to do it I dont think it should be done period.
    The process of racking a five gaited Saddlebred is an art in its own, something akin to teching a horse piaffe and passage, with the caveat that not every horse, even within the Saddlebred breed, will ever be able to rack well and maintain seperation in its intermediate gaits. When most horses are being trained to rack under saddle it is done with the horse barefoot in front and wearing a shoe behind only. This sets up a horse who is inheritably "geared" to be able to rack to be influenced by its shoeing into this gait versus the trot. Once the rack is established you add trotting and cantering back into the workout, and at all times be vigilant that the horse does each gait correctly and not mix gaits, and lastly there is training the horse to wear the full bridle and do each gait.

    But Saddlebred shoeing is a complete different thing that Walking Horse shoeing. You don't see the ultra high stacks or super heavy plantation shoes in the saddlebred ring. If people legitimately have questions about proper saddle seat riding and horsemanship may I suggest a new thread be started? What goes on with the trotting saddle seat breeds (Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian, Hackney) is very, very different than what happens with the strictly gaited breeds.



  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    Don't underestimate the well-roundedness of the average upper level dressage rider! Our current Gold Medal Olympic team is comprised of two former eventers and one former show-horse rider. Most trainers I know who are worth their salt have real depth to their horse experience, as do many posters on this board.

    Also, this is explicitly a forum that discusses, critiques and celebrates dressage - so responses are bound to reflect that! Don't dismiss posters just because they have chosen to concentrate on one discipline for decades.
    I'm well aware of that. Debbie MacDonald showed on our local A Circuit as a hunter rider (and a good one) for years.



  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Do saddleseat riders need to do piaffe, one tempi's, and canter pirouettes?
    So now let me answer your questions without reading snottiness into it. Again, my apologies.

    No. The saddlebreds primarily concentrate on walk/trot/slow gait/rack/canter. However, there is a school of three gaited horses (walk/trot/canter) than concentract on equitation. It isn't dressage - it's more pattern riding. Think Dressage Equitation.

    But the basic principles are used - bending, transitions, rhythum, simple and flying changes, counter canter, etc. These are not dressage per se, as they aren't concentrating on the perfection of the movement. Rather, it is to judge the horsemanship ability of the rider. But the suppleness, submission and overall harmony of the movements are a huge part of it. And that is what dressage as the basis of all training is about. As I've said before, it's applied dressage.

    As with anything at an elite level, the muscling is very different from a top dressage horse, but the fundemtental qualities of dressage training - forward, straightness, obeidence, suppleness and harmony are the same.



  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    The process of racking a five gaited Saddlebred is an art in its own, something akin to teching a horse piaffe and passage, with the caveat that not every horse, even within the Saddlebred breed, will ever be able to rack well and maintain seperation in its intermediate gaits. .
    I had no idea how incredibly hard it was to do until I did it. It is indeed an art in it's own.



  17. #137
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    Saddle Seat World Cup competition is the top event in the saddle seat equitation world. Teams have come from the United States, South Africa, Canada, Sweden, Germany, Great Britian and Namibia. In this competition you ride a strange horse you have never ridden before. There is a 3-Gaited portion and a 5-gaited portion. In the 3-Gaited portion you may end up riding a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian, Half-Arabian, National Show Horse, Hackney, Friesian, Andalusian or Boerperd (a South African breed). In the 5-gaited competition you will ride a Saddlebred, National Show Horse or Boerperd as those are the breeds that are five gaited. USEF participates in the selection process for the American team and the American team represents USEF in international competition. USEF has also recently helped with selecting a Saddle Seat World Cup Young Rider team that is aimed at developing future international competitors.

    As with all saddle seat equitation at the top level there are two phases, rail work and pattern work. In the rail work portion you ride in a group class and are judged on your equitation form and horsemanship as well as your showmanship. In the pattern work portion you do an indvidual pattern where you may be asked to do any of the gaits your horse can do as well as pivot, simple lead changes, counter canter, circles, serpentines, and changes of diagonal at prescribed spots. You are not given any markers, letters or cones and you usually only see the pattern 1 hour before you need to do it.

    Here is a news story about one of the American team members before the latest World Cup competition http://fox6now.com/2012/11/28/sussex...-south-africa/

    And here is the Vimeo user who uploaded much video from the latest Saddle Seat World Cup competition, held in South Africa, http://vimeo.com/user15115982 The U.S. won both the 3 and 5 gaited portions!



  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    Saddle Seat World Cup competition is the top event in the saddle seat equitation world. Teams have come from the United States, South Africa, Canada, Sweden, Germany, Great Britian and Namibia. In this competition you ride a strange horse you have never ridden before. There is a 3-Gaited portion and a 5-gaited portion. In the 3-Gaited portion you may end up riding a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian, Half-Arabian, National Show Horse, Hackney, Friesian, Andalusian or Boerperd (a South African breed). In the 5-gaited competition you will ride a Saddlebred, National Show Horse or Boerperd as those are the breeds that are five gaited. USEF participates in the selection process for the American team and the American team represents USEF in international competition. USEF has also recently helped with selecting a Saddle Seat World Cup Young Rider team that is aimed at developing future international competitors.

    As with all saddle seat equitation at the top level there are two phases, rail work and pattern work. In the rail work portion you ride in a group class and are judged on your equitation form and horsemanship as well as your showmanship. In the pattern work portion you do an indvidual pattern where you may be asked to do any of the gaits your horse can do as well as pivot, simple lead changes, counter canter, circles, serpentines, and changes of diagonal at prescribed spots. You are not given any markers, letters or cones and you usually only see the pattern 1 hour before you need to do it.

    Here is a news story about one of the American team members before the latest World Cup competition http://fox6now.com/2012/11/28/sussex...-south-africa/

    And here is the Vimeo user who uploaded much video from the latest Saddle Seat World Cup competition, held in South Africa, http://vimeo.com/user15115982 The U.S. won both the 3 and 5 gaited portions!
    Wow! Thanks for the info.



  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    There is no "big lick" in Canada, so watching Walkers here is quite pleasant. They tend to be bred to be smooth and sensible rather than flashy, and are marketed more for trails/hunting. Nice breed when more moderate.
    There is or was rather, I met a woman who had and trained a big lick walker, that was back in the late 90's and it was the first time I've ever seen or heard of this particular movement.... She gave me her card, but for the life of me I can't remember her or her barn name. She was probably in her 60's, and very proud of her BL walker

    I think it is pure evil.



  20. #140
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    Thumbnail History of the Big Lick:

    The story begins in the '40s. The two pre-eminent sires of the post-War Walker era were Merry Go Boy and Midnight Sun. Go Boy was a medium built horse while Midnight Sun was a heavyweight (at least 1/8 German Coach Horse). They both performed a version of the running walk but it was not quite the same. Both were ridden pretty much in standard gear, shoes, and with standard equitation. Midnight Sun was probably the more popular because of his size.

    Then catastrophe struck the Walker breed: Talk of the Town won the Celebration three years in a row. He performed a big lick gait. It was his natural way of going; it's what he did. The other TWH Names knew they needed to get that kind of movement to make the big bucks. So they looked to the ASB world and imported on a wholesale basis the standard ASB tools of the day (chains, stacks, etc.). By artificially lengthening the front foot and playing with the angles they could "manufacture" this winning gait without all the bother of breeding and training. They learned, too, that the selective application of pain could give enhanced "front end action." Soring up the horse because a common practice.

    Of course breeding was not really ignored. The breeders of the day quickly learned that if they started out with a horse whose gait tended to the pace that it worked better with the devices to get lots of front end action. By the mid-60s rail car loads of pacing Standarbreds were regularly being imported into Middle TN. The breeder would put his registered TWH stallion to a SB mare. If the offspring were a filly they would register it to a papered TWH mare (no blood typing or DNA testing in those days). They would then breed the filly back to a Walker stallion and, presto, a very pacy horse. As late as the mid-90s there were articles in the Walking Horse Report advocating a legalization of this process (which by that time was becoming impossible due to blood typing). It was never legalized, but the damage to the genetic heritage of the naturally center-gaited Walker was done.

    Today well over 90% of all the Walkers you see do some form of the pace. Few Walker owners have any idea what a correct running walk looks like or feels like.

    It should also be noted that few Big Lick horses are ridden by their owners; most are ridden by hired help.

    This is why Walkers are generally laterally gaited and not easily capable of lateral work. It also makes performance of a three beat canter very difficult (with or without the stacks).

    For many years we did business with a gentleman (now deceased) who was Merry Go Boy's groom and exercise rider. He introduced us to some of the best Walkers we both saw and owned. He advanced us in our education of the Walker, particularly its lost history. Some folks are trying to re-gain that history, but it's an uphill climb given the genetic damage done in prior times.

    The Dressage world has never had much use for gaited horses. I'm personally very familiar, and experienced, with the "down their noses" approach to anything that is not Dressage. Most of the folks who have shown this attitude to me could be quickly dismissed as "posers." That, by the way, is the easiest way to deal with them.

    A word on "gait." The various soft, intermediate gaits exist on a continuum from the barely broken trot to the barely broken pace. Their name is "legion" (running walk; stepping pace; paso fino; marcha picada; foxtrot; etc.). The more lateral the gait the more difficult lateral movement will be.* Each horse has it own way of going. Each way of going can be significantly altered by hoof care practices; saddle type; saddle placement; rider position; bit type; rein usage; etc.). Most gaited breeds are quite insular in their practices and highly resistant to outside influences.

    The use of dressage (note the small "d") techniques with gaited horses, even the very laterally gaited ones, can make a world of positive difference in performance, both immediate and over the long term. Finding good quality instructors and trainers in the Dressage world willing to work with people interested in "dressage" (vice "Dressage") can be quite difficult.

    The Big Lick world is to horsemanship as "reality TV" is to reality. Keep that in mind and it all makes sense. Not good sense, mind you, just "sense" in it's own, twisted way.

    G.

    *Note that "difficult" does not equal "impossible." I've seen some very lateral horses, including a couple of Paso Finos, who could move laterally quite well. But that skill was the result of a lot of patient training by their owners.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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