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  1. #81
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    Speaking of gaited horses in general (not the big lick atrocities), why do I see so many riders on youtube leaning way back against the cantle with their feet in front of the shoulders?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzwEz...e=results_main



  2. #82
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    Good point Caballero.

    Even in AQHA if your seat is completely a mess the judges will ding you even in a class about the horse and horsemovement.

    Judges in that sport seem to have a lot to answer for. Why not just excuse a few classes entirely until someone brings in horses who look comfortable and riders who look like they can ride?

    I am not a huge fan of park horses but arabian and AHA seems to have a handle on the shoeing and riding issue there? http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...,r:6,s:0,i:116
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Speaking of gaited horses in general (not the big lick atrocities), why do I see so many riders on youtube leaning way back against the cantle with their feet in front of the shoulders?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzwEz...e=results_main
    Because they're not riding dressage or anything related to it, and probably have no wish to do so.

    From the few former saddle seat riders I know, the idea is to keep the leg OFF the horse and have the body in a position to absorb the motion and let the horse come up and out in front. I have no idea what the reasoning of form to function is, and I suppose to answer that you'd need to ask saddle seat riders.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    Because they're not riding dressage or anything related to it, and probably have no wish to do so.
    So instead they are way off balance and hanging on the horse's mouth to keep from falling off the back, like the guy in the video I posted.

    This has nothing to do with riding dressage or anything related to it, but a valid question aimed at what looks like atrociuous equitation that seems to do nothing to help the horse.


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  5. #85
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    The horse is racking. Speed racking, and you're right his eq is ugly and wouldn't place in a saddleseat class either. Just like the hunchbacks though, all the rider cares about is the speed of the rack and he's going to sit whatever way makes him comfortable.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Speaking of gaited horses in general (not the big lick atrocities), why do I see so many riders on youtube leaning way back against the cantle with their feet in front of the shoulders?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzwEz...e=results_main
    The fast smooth gaits like the rack really do encourage you to end up in a chair seat..as in the motion itself jiggles the relaxed rider into that position. it's not good for the horse's posture of course, I'm just answering the 'why' of the question. The answer is that the relaxing jiggle just sorta inclines one to end up there.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    This has nothing to do with riding dressage or anything related to it, but a valid question aimed at what looks like atrociuous equitation that seems to do nothing to help the horse.
    Agreed. Which is why you should probably ask saddle seat riders for their opinions, knowledge and intent - I'm sure that would be a positive step forward.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    Because they're not riding dressage or anything related to it, and probably have no wish to do so.
    Well, I've been told (I can't remember the thread and couldn't find it) but apparently, the saddle seat riders are supposed to ride the same way - shoulders to heels straight line - as the dressage riders.

    (What I've seen so far shows a lot of riders that are sitting way further back in their saddle with their legs in front. But I know nothing about Saddleseat's riding/training/horses/saddles)



  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    The fast smooth gaits like the rack really do encourage you to end up in a chair seat..as in the motion itself jiggles the relaxed rider into that position. it's not good for the horse's posture of course, I'm just answering the 'why' of the question. The answer is that the relaxing jiggle just sorta inclines one to end up there.
    Thanks, that answers it.



  10. #90
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    I admit I ride my Paso Fino this way and so do a lot of others - even those who compete nationally. It is very much more comfortable for the rider, and the idea is in fact to keep the leg way off the horse, and to let the front end come up.
    What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Well, I've been told (I can't remember the thread and couldn't find it) but apparently, the saddle seat riders are supposed to ride the same way - shoulders to heels straight line - as the dressage riders.

    (What I've seen so far shows a lot of riders that are sitting way further back in their saddle with their legs in front. But I know nothing about Saddleseat's riding/training/horses/saddles)


    Yes, I posted a pic above of a rider correctly sitting .
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  12. #92
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    I think my IQ just dropped 20 points watching that video (in the original post).
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.


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  13. #93
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    I love a flat shod TWH. That video is horrible. I can speak for many of us when I say we strive to make our horses comfortable, and spend our entire paychecks on shoeing sometimes to make our horses sound and comfortable.

    I have ridden some flat seat, and because of the saddle it is hard to sit correctly in it, but it is possible if you work on it.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoMare View Post
    Nope. Midnight Sun was the horse you mention. He could "Strike a Lick" on his own, God-given ability & talent, honed by proper training.

    Trainers saw Midnight Sun win WGC 2 years and said "Oh, we can get ours to break higher! How we gonna do that? I know, we'll cheat." A chemical caused one horse to lift their legs higher & faster and so the decades of pain & torture started. Best explained in this well-published/shared article, More Than Sore.

    Alas, cheating and short-cuts to bring up performance are used across all equine breeds & disciplines. Close to my heart, of course, is the draft Big Hitch world where pressure shoeing, bigger/heavier scotch bottom shoes & assorted chemical cocktails are used to get that Big Knee Action that's being pinned.

    All for a ribbon and, maybe, a check.

    Chocomare, sadly I don't see ANY resemblance to Midnight Sun in the big lick movement today--his was NATURAL, and you can see it wasn't forced or exaggerated with gadgets and soring. And it was beautiful, not a freakshow. The horses in the OP video have only become freaky shadows of their natural selves....so very sad.



  15. #95
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    Exactly and sadly correct. Very simply, the Sore Lickers bastardized the natural, flowing, lovely movement of the true TWH to get that Lick higher and higher.

    I had the pleasure of riding a retired Atlanta Mounted PD mare, Bella, a traditional "Plantation Walker." Big, smooth and could go for miles. THAT is what they were bred for.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  16. #96
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    I couldn't watch the whole thing.... it looks painful although I have never seen that type of riding before. The temperament of those horses must be incredible to deal with it since it doesn't look like they are "happy" and relaxed in their work. Do these horses actually stay sound?



  17. #97
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    Regarding sitting the rack -

    I've ridden dressage and hunter/Jumper for 40 years, and now am riding saddlebreds. The seat is the same - shoulder/hip/heel in a line. And the feel is that of a horse really working off his hind end. The saying is no hind, no movement. It's really too bad saddlebreds aren't in vogue, because they really are built to be wonderful dressage horse. It's just a different muscling through the training. If you put the muscle on the topline, you have a lovely dressage horse.

    But to show a Park horse, the energy and engagement behind is the same as a dressage horse. But the front is freed up to show the natural action. Muscles are built up in the shoulders and the underside of the neck rather than the topline in order to show the action in front. You want a gaited horse leading with the chest. Frankly, it's exactly like riding a big jumper. I keep looking for the top rail of the jump, LOL.

    The rider uses the snaffle to lift the front end. The curb is used to open or close the throatlatch depending on the horse. I have to say that I've never seen such beautiful hands in my life than on saddleseat riders. There are a few exceptions but I have to say that this is an accurate generalization - turly wonderful, soft, kind hands.

    The rack is fast and very uphill. The tendency towards the chairseat is that when your horse drops down behind and engages, the saddle doesn't give you any support. Consider how built up in the cantle a dressage saddle is. A gaited saddle is flat, and the rider is expected to be strong enough to hold themself. I found myself grabbing a lot of mane! Now, I'm looking for a saddleseat equitation saddle which has a deeper seat.

    The riders legs are kept off the horse, because frankly, you don't need them, they have such a natural engine. Most saddlebreds drive before they are ridden, and honestly, because of this, you don't have the issues of straightness. So forward and straight are a given, then, you work on bending.

    Like Hunters & jumpers, gaited horses use dressage principles. But they are 'applied' dressage, because the point of it is different - not wrong. Just a different end result.

    We had a Tennessee Walker trainer in the barn. She did the Plantation walkers, and they were flat shod. Those were the nicest horses to ride.

    Don't paint all gaited horses or gaited diciplines with a broad brush. They have their bad apple trainers (just like dressage - think rollkur!), and they have just as much misinformation about dressage as dressage people tend to about gaited horses.

    Probably way more information than needed, but like the Tennesse Walking Horses - there are bad trainers and good trainers in everything. Try to stop the bad, and learn to understand the good.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
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    Forgot to add on the original topic - I've always thought that the TWH canter as shown on that video is the oddest thing I've ever seen. Watching a natural shod TWN walk and canter is fun, and the most comfortable thing every to ride!



  19. #99
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    The canter is also pretty weird to ride. As a kid at a Saddlebred barn, there were a couple of TWHs I got to exercise for their owners. Took me forever to get them to canter until someone finally told me you had to reach forward with the inside leg and toe them in the elbow!
    The canter feels like a repeated controlled rear.



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    The canter feels like a repeated controlled rear.
    It looks like it too!



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