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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrenhilleventing View Post
    I am sure all of you mean well, but I'd rather not get involved in this. I just wanted to clear my name before the idea exploded down the line that I was a dishonest person. To be honest, I wish it didn't take me having to post on here to do so, but I guess I am glad I did because I know many others wouldn't even bother doing so. If my name does come up in a negative manner again (understanding now that questionable wasn't meant to be attacking my character), I would hope those who post could refer to this thread before posting in said thread, that was all I was aiming for.
    I'm so glad you posted Liz! And as always, one dishonest person will ruin it for the rest.

    I don't think this thread is "dragging anyone through the mud". Liz easily explained her am status.

    And posting already public knowledge on a sport related BB is no different than googling yourself.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



  2. #122
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    Jul. 15, 2005
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    The problem is NOT just at the lower levels. I've known a shamateur who was on the leader board for the Advanced Level. Yep, it's not cool.

    And I just don't see the point. Really. Do people need the boost to their ego that much that they have to be dishonest so they can be listed on a leader board, or win ribbons?

    I teach beginners, I break babies and do low level training - I mean REALLY low level, not lower level eventing. I'm talking maybe up through first level dressage and jumping small courses - 2 foot or so. Thats where my skill set is at. Sure I'm hoping to keep progressing, but right now I compete at Starter and am working on moving up to BN. I'm a pro. I make money teaching and training horses.

    Thats the fact of the matter. The fact that I'm not uber-competitive at shows HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AM/PRO STATUS.

    Not confusing.
    Not an issue unless you care about some lip service from USEA on a leader board.
    www.hogbackhillfarm.com


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  3. #123
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    Nov. 5, 2011
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    Wish I knew, but the journey is interesting
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    In British Eventing, it is the horse that goes up the grades, not the rider. This leads to interesting competitions in which a 16 year old school child wins against a medal winning Olympian. Men and women, old and young, professional and complete amateur compete on equal terms. What could be better?

    There are limits on the number of horses a pro can ride in one day.

    Of course, the FEI have introduced the idea of licenses for riders to ensure people have enough experience before they move up to 4 star...



  4. #124
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    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by msghook View Post
    subk - it is not that the USEF doesn't care; it is that the USEF doesn't have the resources to to be the policeman. There are 80,000 plus USEF members. Staff at USEF deals with hundreds of thousands of entries at recognized competitions annually. They can't afford the time to look at every Amateur application and then do a web search to see if that individual advertises professional services. Especially when, as we have seen in this thread, the name of the individual is hidden behind the name of a farm. TDs and Stewards have no more idea about the professional/amateur status of the several hundred people at the competition where they officiate. I personally know hundreds of Eventers and interact with them on regular basis. But I have no idea regarding the Professional/Amateur status of most of them. The process relies on the participation of the members to bring violations to the attention of the officials and the Federation. If we, as members of a society, don't care enough act in the best interests of that society, then we get the results that we deserve (google Kitty Genovese). If "we" want the shamateur violations to stop then we have to play our role in the process.
    ...Malcolm
    Malcom, I will repeat, no one expects the USEF to review all or even any Amateur affidavits. The USEA presents the award---I assume this since it is referred to as the "USEA Leaderboard." I think the USEA has more accountability here than to pass the blame on to the USEF. The USEA has some responsibility to not just the membership but to those like Liz and others on the leader board that the USEA list itself has some integrity.

    If the onus to initiate the validity of status is on the membership how is that suppose to happen when many people on the Amateur leader board get there without ever entering an Amateur division? And if riders get on the list without inappropriately entering divisions have they even broken any rules?


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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    If the onus to initiate the validity of status is on the membership how is that suppose to happen when many people on the Amateur leader board get there without ever entering an Amateur division? And if riders get on the list without inappropriately entering divisions have they even broken any rules?
    They don't base it on amateur divisions, they base it on placings with the non-amateurs removed. So if I place tenth, but I'm the highest placed amateur, I get amateur points for first place. I notice that the top overall amateur placings seem to be based on the regular point system.



  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqsiu View Post
    They don't base it on amateur divisions, they base it on placings with the non-amateurs removed. So if I place tenth, but I'm the highest placed amateur, I get amateur points for first place. I notice that the top overall amateur placings seem to be based on the regular point system.
    Yes, that's my point. If Joe Shamateur is entering all Open division he gets amateur points and he can accumulate all his points in divisions that would not call into question his amateur status--and which none of the membership would ever have reason to call attention to a TD or steward his incorrect status.



  7. #127
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    Sep. 18, 2004
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    New England
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqsiu View Post
    I know a rider who rides as an amateur, while teaching lessons and training horses for money. She now has gained a sponsorship (gained after last year's season had ended) and I'm waiting to see if she declared amateur status for this year. She is by no means an amateur, even in spirit. I am appalled by it. Yet no one seems to think a thing of it around here. However, I don't have $200 to spare for a protest, and I think burning bridges is a bad idea generally. So...

    ETA: correct spelling, wrong word.
    If you contact the USEA and point this out (and it really helps if person has a website or a Social Media page (Facebook, Twitter, Blog) that substantiates your observations, the USEA makes the inquiry. The person is allowed to state voluntarily that the made a "mistake" in checking off amateur status and then declaring by electronic signature that they are an amateur and the USEA will change their status.

    I've done it twice...



  8. #128
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    Apr. 11, 2006
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    Lodi Ohio
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    I am on record with USEF as a pro. I teach four riders once a week. I think I pay more for my insurance than I generate teaching, but I enjoy it so I play by the rules. I have not experienced a problem with divisions in the USEA and compete where I am eligible according to the rules.

    However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

    Nancy



  9. #129
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    Nov. 7, 2006
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    That makes sense, NMK. I hadn't thought of that. I don't mind being a pro for eventing on account of my 12.2 pony training exploits - that seems fair to me. But having a 12.2 pony will make me a pro dressage or hunter rider ? I would be laughed out of the show !



  10. #130
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    Mar. 26, 2008
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    Maine
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACMEeventing View Post
    Those links are infuriating; not because I am vying for year end awards, but because that level of poor sportsmanship is a reflection on the sport as a whole.
    Late to this party, but definitely a bit ditto to this. There is a rider in my area who is listed as a trainer on their family's stable website and is a working student for a BNR. They have been listed on the amateur leaderboards and their family/clients post on Facebook about how exciting it is, so it's obviously not a mistake/something they don't know about. The lack of sportsmanship is irritating and reflects poorly on their facility as a whole (IMO).

    Meanwhile I will not be filing as an amateur next year because I believe I now violate the rule in one of those roundabout ways. I have never been paid for riding or training but I fall into one of those categories where I toss hay and check water during night check for a couple bucks off my board and hop on a naughty school pony for the BO every rare once in a while.

    I prefer the open/horse/rider designations when available.
    "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"



  11. #131
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMK View Post
    .

    However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

    Nancy
    Yes, it has been brought up MANY MANY times before.

    Even being paid in an activity that has nothng to do with USEF (e.g. driving a carriage in a tourist town, or leading trail rides, or exercising polo ponies) makes you a pro across all disciplines.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #132
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMK View Post
    However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

    Nancy
    Came up for a good friend of mine....event rider then dressage rider. For kicks we started taking some reining lessons and then doing more of the working cow stuff. Because she was a Pro in the dressage world...she was a pro in that world. Enough so that when whe had a little project horse, I could show him in the novice classes but she couldn't because of her status and had to go in the open classes. In the working cow stuff...that meant she had to start roping at a much earlier point

    What was interesting though was even though she was a dressage rider...she did have a leg up on a lot of the riders in reining. She could ride a better circle (and funny, so could I) than a lot of the non-pros. And neither of us had trouble going fast The sports are really really different, but there are some skills that do cross over.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  13. #133
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    Jun. 25, 2004
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    At one time Eventers allowed different Amateur definition than USEF and all other USEF recognized disciplines. Janet noted the rule discussion and modification around 10 years ago.
    So there may be some lifetime USEF and USEA members that were amateurs under the old rules that have been "lax" (to be polite) in confirming their status. As I understand, this status must be confirmed every year.

    As to what the USEA can do about this. Possibly a better option is to post the leaderboard quarterly. Create a form letter/email detailing the USEF amateur definition and advise the receiptant he/she must confirm they are within compliance with the rule. This should be sent to any competitor, 19+ years or older, who appears on the amateur leaderboards. That puts the competitors on notice of their status so they can modify as necessary. All within the competitive year.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  14. #134
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    The USEA presents the award---I assume this since it is referred to as the "USEA Leaderboard." I think the USEA has more accountability here than to pass the blame on to the USEF. The USEA has some responsibility to not just the membership but to those like Liz and others on the leader board that the USEA list itself has some integrity.


    And if the USEA doesn't have the time or resources or wherewithal to verify the status of a handful of year-end award winners, there shouldn't be year-end awards based on pro/am status.


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  15. #135
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    Here's the solution to the problem: If names of amateurs showed up on the score board at events with an asterix after their name the most of the problem would pretty much be solved a couple months into the season. The membership doesn't protest because they don't know who is card carrying and who isn't. Show who is card carrying and it gets fixed either by embarrassment or protest.

    Actually, as an amateur that asterix was all I ever really wanted: subk* :grin: When I was doing upper levels what would have been nice was someone looking at the score board and seeing of the 3 double clears on XC one was from an ammy, or that maybe I got 8th but if you took away the pros I could see that I was the top ammy of the day. Instead, in attempt to appease amateurs we got the Leaderboard with egregious errors that no one cares enough about to make sure it has integrity. And I still can't tell how I stacked up with other amateurs in my division on Sunday afternoon at the end of an event.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  16. #136
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    Oct. 9, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    See GR1309.9
    Or check out this link
    http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...nstatement.pdf
    Thank you. Not even sure if I can do that, I don't think I really know two active Senior USEF members that well anymore!!



  17. #137
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    Feb. 4, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post

    And if the USEA doesn't have the time or resources or wherewithal to verify the status of a handful of year-end award winners, there shouldn't be year-end awards based on pro/am status.
    Agree completely. It sounds like it isn't all a case of dishonesty--there may be a glitch in the system (software issue? box too easy to accidentally check/uncheck?) that allowed a number of pros earn amateur points.

    But it looks bad for the USEA, and is really hurtful to a lot of the membership (those on the list correctly, on the list accidentally, off the list because of accidental inclusions, off the list because they "did the right thing" and declared pro . . . ).

    "Talk to the TD" works at shows if people are entered wrong, but doesn't address the issue of amateur points earned in open divisions. I hope that the USEA takes the time to figure out what happened and re-issue a corrected list.

    Or, if that requires more resources than they have, cease printing amateur leaderboards.


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  18. #138
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    Apr. 30, 2002
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    Now even I am confused.
    I thought that the year end awards were based on points in each category they offer an award set. That the riders filling the placings were sorted by the computer program, or pulled by staff in numerical (point standing) order in some fashion - by hand, by computer, whatever. Now what I want to know is, how does someone get listed as an amateur when they have not ever checked that box?
    Presumably they would have been competing all year as an amateur in order to have high enough points to place in national year end awards categories. So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever) and said, oh look they have you down in the amateur category, you're not an amateur.....
    That's a bad error, I think. If it is an error.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
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  19. #139
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    So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever)
    For Real.

    I WAS an amateur for 2012. And Every. Single. Time I looked up Po's results to check that I had her up to date comp record entered on evententries, I was reminded of our score, our amended amateur points... it is 100% beyond me how anyone can claim to 'not notice' their incorrect status. I'm not buying it.


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  20. #140
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    Feb. 23, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by retreadeventer View Post
    Now what I want to know is, how does someone get listed as an amateur when they have not ever checked that box?
    Presumably they would have been competing all year as an amateur in order to have high enough points to place in national year end awards categories. So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever) and said, oh look they have you down in the amateur category, you're not an amateur.....
    That's a bad error, I think. If it is an error.
    I don't know the answer to this, but I'll agree- it's confusing . I found out DH was listed as an amateur last year because the amateur points were showing up next to the USEA points when I looked at his competition record on the the USEA page. I asked him about it and he said he'd not designated himself as an amateur as far as he knew (in addition to having private sponsors and starting young horses on occasion, he's a USEA/USEF licensed official, which I think precludes him from ammy status?). It's fixed now (he definitely does NOT have ammy status and it says as much on his record) but it seemed like the default with the USEA was to list him as an amateur. He never showed in any amateur divisions at shows I don't think, all the points were assigned for being the highest place "amateur" in an open division. I still don't really understand it, the whole mess seems like more trouble than it's worth.
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