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  1. #1

    Default Providence filly, not able to get Oldenburg GOV papers

    This is the first time I have posted on this forum, though I have read posts here for years and have appreciated everyone’s point of view. I am posting in hopes that more experienced horse breeders/sellers/buyers can give me some direction in a difficult situation.
    I bought a yearling Oldenburg GOV filly from a breeder in Northern California in April 2012. I spent what was top-dollar in my budget for a very nice H/J prospect, by the Hanoverian sire Providence out of an accomplished H/J Oldenburg mare. The breeder did not have the GOV papers in hand, but I called Holly at Oldenburg GOV and gave her the filly’s name and registration # and she assured me that the filly was registered with GOV, but that the papers were still being processed in Germany. I proceeded with the sale and brought the filly home in April. In May, GOV mistakenly mailed the papers to the breeder/seller instead of to me. The seller assured me that she sent the papers back to the GOV office in Florida in June 2012. Throughout the summer I tried to contact Holly from GOV, but she was out on inspections and I know this is a very hectic time of year for her. I did manage to talk to her on the phone 3 times, at which time she assured me that the papers for my filly were being processed in Germany, in my name. By November 2012 I still had not received the papers so I called Holly again. Holly called the German office to see what was holding up the papers. At this point Holly discovered that the breeder had never sent the papers back in June 2012 and this has slipped through the cracks as Holly was out on inspection all summer. I contacted the breeder and she insists she did sent the papers, and Holly insists that the papers were never received, so it is one person’s word against another and there is no way I can be sure of the truth.
    Holly recommended that I have the breeder write a letter stating that she sent the papers to GOV in June but they were never received. This letter needs to be notarized by the breeder, since she was the last one to see the papers. I would then need to pay $150 to have replacement papers issued, which I would do happily. I sent the breeder a letter explaining all of this, along with a $50 check to reimburse her for the notary, mailing costs, and her time in writing the letter. She promptly cashed my $50 check, but has not responded to multiple texts, emails and phone messages regarding writing the letter. Holly has been helpful and sympathetic about the situation, but if the breeder does not write the letter stating she sent the papers and they were never received, GOV cannot issue duplicate papers.
    The sadness of this to me is that I paid top dollar for what is now essentially an un-registered horse. While the filly is registered with GOV, the papers have been lost, and there is no way to obtain duplicate papers without the breeder’s cooperation, which she appears to be unwilling to provide. Without the breeder's cooperation there is no way to get the filly’s papers in my name. A part of me wants to let it go, and just accept her as un-registered, because papers or not, she is a fabulous and talented filly. However, if I ever breed her, or need to sell her, I will be sorry that I don’t have her papers.
    I am putting this story out there to more experienced breeders/buyers/sellers. Is there anything else I can do? Should I accept this filly as un-registered? Should I pursue litigation to get the breeder to write the notarized letter? I spent the maximum I could afford on this great prospect, and now that the filly is essentially non-registered, she is not worth nearly what I paid.
    Thanks for reading and I appreciate any feedback.



  2. #2
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    Jan. 17, 2010
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    Well, who is the breeder?



  3. #3
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    I had a very similar situation happen to me with Jill Burnell of Gray Fox Farm. I did get papers, though with no cooperation from Ms. Burnell.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Jan. 18, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by dianehalpin View Post
    Well, who is the breeder?
    The breeder is a small operation in Northern CA, I don't want to taint her name by mentioning her specifically as she has several other well-bred foals for sale. I am still hoping for an amicable resolution so I don't want to mention her personally. Thanks!



  5. #5
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    The breeder is not Jill Burnell. It is someone else. I am happy that in your case you were able to get the papers (even without her cooperation)!



  6. #6
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    OP, if it is Jill Burnell Please scan down this first page of this forum.... i think it will give you a lot of info if you haven't seen it already.

    if it isnt JB then "outing" the breeder might get you the action you desire.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Oct. 30, 2005
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    Contact an attorney and have them write a letter to this breeder, letting them know you are willing to see if they will work with you, but you have limits. Let them know what your limits are, and make it clear you would rather not, but you will seek legal remedies if they don't follow through with getting the papers to you. Send a copy of this to the GOV also. I'm so tired of hearing about flaky business in the horse world; so sorry you have to go through this! Good luck to you.
    Last edited by Indy-lou; Jan. 19, 2013 at 12:13 AM. Reason: grammar


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Aug. 22, 2012
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    It's not JB but I know who this woman is (not personally) and she is in the East Bay. I've directed the OP to a forum she is known to frequent. Hopefully by posting there she will lite a fire under her.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    Contact an attorney and have them write a letter to this breeder, letting them know you are willing to see if they will work with you, but you have limits. Let them know what your limits are, and make it clear you would rather not, but you will seek legal remedies if they don't follow through with getting the papers to you. Send a copy of this to the GOV also. I'm so tired of hearing about flaky business in the horse world; so sorry you have to go through this! Good luck to you.
    Yup. Time to involve an attorney. Sometimes all it takes is a letter on the right stationary.



  10. #10
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    its cheaper to just post on a BB and threaten to out them it usually works too!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    There are a bunch of us in the east bay that may be able to help by paying a visit. I'm thinking of a couple of people it may be.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoeywalterpiper View Post
    The breeder is a small operation in Northern CA, I don't want to taint her name by mentioning her specifically as she has several other well-bred foals for sale. I am still hoping for an amicable resolution so I don't want to mention her personally. Thanks!
    So what if she has other foals for sale? She sold you a registerable foal, but will not follow through on making sure you get those registration papers. She happily cashed your check for payment on the horse. She happily cashed your check to cover the cost of a notary public so you get the papers. Time to either out her publicly, so potential buyers know what kind of customer service to expect from her, or get a lawyer. Or both.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Forgot to add - have you tried working through the new North American office in Canada? Contact info is at the bottom of this page - http://oldenburghorse.net/oh/contact...ste-kopie.html .

    And honest to God - I don't understand why the registry will not issue duplicate papers if you have a legitimate bill of sale.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Forgot to add - have you tried working through the new North American office in Canada? Contact info is at the bottom of this page - http://oldenburghorse.net/oh/contact...ste-kopie.html .

    And honest to God - I don't understand why the registry will not issue duplicate papers if you have a legitimate bill of sale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    Contact an attorney and have them write a letter to this breeder, letting them know you are willing to see if they will work with you, but you have limits. Let them know what your limits are, and make it clear you would rather not, but you will seek legal remedies if they don't follow through with getting the papers to you. Send a copy of this to the GOV also. I'm so tired of hearing about flaky business in the horse world; so sorry you have to go through this! Good luck to you.
    I would contact an attorney and light a fire under that breeder. What you are asking her to do is not hard nor difficult, so it should be done, especially since she already cashed your check. No you should not accept your filly as unregistered as you purchased a filly that had papers pending.

    Just one note, how was your bill of sale written, did it have that the filly was to be registered and the registration number (or that it was pending)? That would give you the best foot forward to proving that you purchased a "registered" foal. I know my bill of sale has a spot for the registration number and if it is pending, I put "pending and in process with the GOV". And my Bill of Sale explicitly says that the breeder (me) is responsible for sending the papers when they arrive to the buyer.


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  15. #15
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    I am sure I know this breeder, and I highly recommend an attorney letter. I hope you get this resolved quickly.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  16. #16
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    If you need a recommendation of an attorney who knows horses and is experienced in California business law, let me know. It seems to me that if you verified with Holly S that the registration papers would be coming, and you paid for her only after that assurance, you need to be talking with Holly too. The DNA will verify the parents of your filly.



  17. #17
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    It would be a serious service to the rest of us if you would mention the name. I have been soooooo ripped off by stallion owners, I nearly went bankrupt. Yet I see thier names here, wtih people actually defending them and their actions! Makes me very frustrated, knowing others are going to be ripped off like I was. Or harassed, or defamed, etc. like I have been. There are some seriously disturbed individuals in this business, but if they have money, it's all just covered up it seems. That's crazy!!

    And the breed associations let them right off the hook.

    I run a business, and I would be right out of business if I engaged in practices like this- because all I need is someone to post something somewhere on some internet board and there goes my business......it's a real deterrant in other businesses, why should horse business be exempt from reasonable business practices?

    ALL GOV registered horses are DNA tested- I fail to begin to understand WHY you need the cooperation of the breeder to get the papers on this horse. That's an outrage. YOU have NO control over another person's actions, YOU have the horse, why are we paying all this money to these organizations if they can't provide the tiny-est bit of customer service? I would send a demand letter to GOV myself. And go personally visit the breeder/seller and collect the signature.

    Hearing this stuff just makes me aggravated. OF COURSE you need the papers- actually, it seems to me that if you don't receive them as promised the sale of the horse should be invalidated, but that's for the attorneys to determine I suppose.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    I hope you continue to post your progress on this issue, OP, as things go along. I'm sorry for your trouble, and I hope that you can up the ante a bit. One thought I had was, since she cashed your check for the letter, you can rewrite to her and outline the steps you can take if she does not follow through, but to make it easy for her, you have written the letter, all she has to do it sign it, give her a stamped, whatever, envelope, all she has to do it sign it, stuff it, lick it and mail it.

    If you felt strongly enough, you could have one of the volunteers on this site go to her house with eh pre-written letter, have her sign it, stuff it and lick it and hand it over to the volunteer who is your agent whilst the volunteer stands and waits. I don't know if that would work. Some combination of that plus advice from an attorney, or letter from an attorney, hand delivered by a breeches and tallboots/half chaps wearing horse person might get the letter done.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  19. #19
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    If the seller is who I think it is, I had a problem with her as well. I thought mine was maybe just some sort is momentary wrong thinking, but apparently not.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  20. #20
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    Jan. 18, 2013
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    Thanks so much to all of you for your support and suggestions. I really appreciate your insights and I am keeping them all in mind. The breeder contacted me right away after seeing this thread and said she will write the letter to GOV and send it Monday, so I am hopeful for a good resolution.

    As for the Bill of Sale, under the section where the horse is described, it has her breed as Oldenburg GOV, registration number and microchip number all written in. Nowhere does it say that anything is pending. Right below the registration number it says “The seller agrees to sell and the buyer agrees to buy said horse on the following terms.” So it seems clear that the horse’s registration is a material term of the purchase agreement.

    I will keep the forum updated. Thanks again for all of your feedback and knowledge, I am very appreciative!


    2 members found this post helpful.

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