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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2011
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    81

    Default Armstrong definition of cheating

    Lance said in his interview with Oprah that when he looked up cheating in the dictionary it said (or something similar to this), a person who engages in a behavior or activity to gain an unfair advantage over others.

    He said that because he wasn't doing anything that anyone else didn't have the opportunity to take part in that he didn't feel that it was cheating. He also kind of implied that drug use was wide-spread at that point in time, so his drug use wasn't giving him an advantage.

    I am quite sure that many of our trainers do feel the same.

    Now how many of them have a "God Complex" like Lance I'm not certain.

    We have become a society in which people look at reward versus risk. I could win at Devon but I might get caught drugging a horse/pony. The odds that my pony will be tested are ?%, the odds that my pony will ribbon without drugs is ?%, the odds that my pony will ribbon with drugs is ?%.

    I'm willing to bet the odds and take my chances.

    Face it, the money has over taken horsemanship in many areas. We have A-type parents who are used to running businesses and having people do what they want. They spend their money and want results NOW. Who cares if their daughter doesn't ride well or doesn't want to be at the barn six days a week to master riding. They want to winter in Florida AND bring home ribbons.

    Education is the key that we are missing in all of this. Trainers aren't doing a great job educating parents on exactly what the sport entails and our governing bodies are not educating our judges on how to pin classes which do not penalize horses who are fresh or proud of a particularly spectacular jumping effort.

    Not saying that we should reward bucking around corners but we shouldn't be penalizing a horse for acting like a horse and overlooking a slight head shake or a horse raising his head especially if the fence jumped was spectacular.

    The derbies seem to be a step in the right direction.

    I know drugging has been happening since the start of time but by dumbing down the shows to allow crossrails etc at WEF, we now have kids who really shouldn't be showing in the rated shows showing. I get the trainers wanting all of their clients at one venue but what happened to getting local mileage and making the rated shows special and something you worked toward?


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  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,988

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by searching12321 View Post
    Lance said in his interview with Oprah that when he looked up cheating in the dictionary it said (or something similar to this), a person who engages in a behavior or activity to gain an unfair advantage over others.
    If you have to look something up in a dictionary to justify your cheating action - you have a big problem in my book to begin with.

    I don't see a problem with making it tougher by more drug screening in sports, jobs, etc. Make people more accountable...... But this will cost more money so I would expect the cost to participate to increase in an already expensive sport. Maybe they could fine those caught cheating and put that money in a fund to support the testing that must take place.....
    Train like you have never won and show like you have never lost!!!



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by searching12321 View Post
    I get the trainers wanting all of their clients at one venue but what happened to getting local mileage and making the rated shows special and something you worked toward?
    The first part of your question answers the second. The trainers do not want to lose clients (and money) because they tell those clients they have to stay home, or go to a local show with the assistant trainer. ESPECIALLY when those clients are paying the same for board and training as the clients going to A shows with The Trainer and the trainer doesn't want to cut their rates for those clients. Throw in the culture of dependence (the trainer MUST be watching every round, MUST be the one setting the jumps, watching them warm up/warming up the horse themselves, etc.) and it does make practical sense to have everyone at the same show. With fewer and fewer people having the money to spend thousands a month, more of those people are going to be results-oriented and fewer trainers have the leeway of refusing business and STAYING in business as a result. For the big-show operations, preaching about waiting and the journey over the destination and still demanding thousands for board and training every month and charging the same/close to go to local/unrated/lower rated shows with assistants while the "top" clients go to the rateds is not necessarily a wise decision when the number of people with wallets that deep is getting smaller, not larger.

    Plus in some areas there's the added issues of quality local/unrated shows for Hunter People being very thin on the ground. Sometimes just going to an A show is a major hike and production number. That just turns into a logistical problem more easily solved by taking everyone to the same show.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,988

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    The first part of your question answers the second. The trainers do not want to lose clients (and money) because they tell those clients they have to stay home, or go to a local show with the assistant trainer. ESPECIALLY when those clients are paying the same for board and training as the clients going to A shows with The Trainer and the trainer doesn't want to cut their rates for those clients. Throw in the culture of dependence (the trainer MUST be watching every round, MUST be the one setting the jumps, watching them warm up/warming up the horse themselves, etc.) and it does make practical sense to have everyone at the same show. With fewer and fewer people having the money to spend thousands a month, more of those people are going to be results-oriented and fewer trainers have the leeway of refusing business and STAYING in business as a result. For the big-show operations, preaching about waiting and the journey over the destination and still demanding thousands for board and training every month and charging the same/close to go to local/unrated/lower rated shows with assistants while the "top" clients go to the rateds is not necessarily a wise decision when the number of people with wallets that deep is getting smaller, not larger.

    Plus in some areas there's the added issues of quality local/unrated shows for Hunter People being very thin on the ground. Sometimes just going to an A show is a major hike and production number. That just turns into a logistical problem more easily solved by taking everyone to the same show.
    That may be one part of the equation, in my neck of the woods there are some lovely local shows on good footing, and even some of the A shows offer B and C at the same show; but what happens here is - your an A rider on an A horse (even green one) and you are talked about that it's not fair your are in that division on your fancy horse.

    But those that are willing to drug it's not because they need to go to a local show for experience, it's to win at the top levels and maybe some of the horses are not mentally suited for the job.

    But saying that, there are so many variables and cannot be painted with a broad brush...

    IMHO - fines and suspensions are just worth it to those willing to cheat to win.
    Train like you have never won and show like you have never lost!!!



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul. 16, 2001
    Location
    The Great White North, where we get taxed out the wazoo
    Posts
    638

    Default

    I think with human athletes, who make their own choices, that you need to either allow what ever they want to use to be legal, so the best human specimen who is lucky on the day wins, OR if you are caught, even once, you are done. Out of the sport forever.
    With horses I would say the second choice is possibly the only way. One strike and you are out of the game.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2006
    Posts
    258

    Default

    Question here
    About USEF going back to pull all B samples they are in possession of and retest them for forbidden substances, and if that happens then there will be nothing left to test at a later time when more sensitive and accurate testing may be developed?
    Not sure how many back up samples are held and for how long they are held in questionable situations.
    Not pointing at any specific case just curious how long and how many samples are held in case new tests are developed so that samples can be re checked anyway?



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    12,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    Please immediately remove this thread as it creates a platform for continued defamation of my name and business. Your indecency can not continue to hide behind the Common Decency Aact as you have been supplied with a sworn statement in response to the New York Times article and I can sit across from Oprah and answer "No" proudly to each and every question posed.

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil..._Affidavit.pdf

    The questions have been ASKED and ANSWERED to the proper authorities and AHF LLC has issued the following press release as of January 19, 2013

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...s._Tauber.html
    As Mr. Takei would say, "Oh my!"
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2007
    Posts
    46

    Default spot on

    englishivy, you are spot on!! well said.


    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    I think the bullies run the sport because the clients are fine with how they do things as long as they win.

    There's this thing called "supply and demand", and the trainers are only one part of the equation. Show managers, riders, parents, and vets all play a part of where we've found ourselves today.

    I am a trainer who absolutely 100% promotes horsemanship. I train horses slowly and correctly. My riders don't get to move up until they've proven they can perform the current skills techincally correct and while producing a correct and proper horse (ie QUALITY). Showing is an earned privlidege, not a right. On rainy days we teach horse care, nutrition, conformation, everything.

    And you know what? I am having a hard time staying in business. Too many people want quick fixes, instant results, and moving up the ranks. They want the least amount of finanical and time commitment but with the greatest results. And the only way that happens is at the detriment of the horse.

    A few of my (former) trainer friends with a philosophy similar to mine have "altered" (no pun intended) their business model, getting their clients and horses into the show ring quicker and by any means possible. And you know what....barn is full, waiting list for lessons, horses selling for far more than they are worth.

    Until our riders change what they want from their riding experience, trainers will use and exploit for more money, vets will enable drug use, show manager will continue to provide 1,782 shows a year to chase points at.

    The culture we live in values the destination, not the journey.



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,826

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    As Mr. Takei would say, "Oh my!"
    Interesting "legalese" isn't it? Reminds me of dragonhart8/spirit horse..



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