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  1. #1
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    Default Is the Humble Initiative related to the Armstrong Effect?

    Just throwing this out there...

    Do owners/trainers feel they have to use any means possible to compete and define cheating as having an unfair advantage? So if everybody does it and you have to do it to win there is no unfair advantage because everybody does it? So you are really not cheating by definition?

    Do owners/trainers/barn help and vets feel if they report violations or refuse to participate their future careers will be incinerated? They will be personally vilified? They will get sued?

    Are the bullies ruling our sport?

    This is not directed at any one person- it's about all of us and our sport. And I am not calling anybody fat so it's ok.

    Your constructive thoughts?
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  2. #2
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Default

    I was actually thinking about Humble today while they were replaying and analyzing the Armstrong interview...great minds and all that - lol. You raise really good point. I have been doing some local stuff since my baby is not ready to show, and I lost my other pony. I know there is a lot of ACE being used at this level even.....so it has even moved out of the rated shows and into the 4H level (yes, really)

    Now, the more sophisticated drugs and drug combos, including Mg are not being used at this level (that I have heard of anyway) but the premise is the same...performing enhancing.

    What confuses me is that I dont see it as performance enhancing, but I am from the 60's and 70's - showed in the early to mid 70's when horses were rewarded for being a little horsie like, and ponies even more so I addition, judges seemed to like a little "peek" and tail swish in their hunters.

    Now, I will admit that I have a lovely, lovely new large who is awonderful but VERY spooky baby. Literally everything scares him (as he is growing, he is less spooky). I have tried a bit of ACE while at home and to be honest, it makes him harder to ride. OK, so he doesnt spook as much but he is NOT the same pony....I tried it twice, then dumped the ACE idea. before anyone flames me...I am 50, a transplant patient who is currently dealing with rejection issues and I have a type of Hickman (but bigger) line that they are doing plasmapheresis a few times a week with. Add the fact that I cant get there on a regular basis and I cant even find someone to PAY to ride him (kids dont like to ride anything hard these days around where I live). Anyway, like I said, that ACEidea lasted two rides...made poor pony a little beligerant and unable to actually learn anything.

    I wonder if it goes on as much in the lower level A shows? I am thinking like fieldstone, Shallowbrook, The Pines...in my area??? I would love to know.

    Oh...and in my situation, I am just giving him another year to settle down and for me to (hopefully) get a little healthier
    Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org



  3. #3
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    Default

    Different people bring different things to the table, and the *cheating* varies according to what each can get away with and how comfortable they are with their choice of cheat styles.



  4. #4
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    Default

    I think the bullies run the sport because the clients are fine with how they do things as long as they win.

    There's this thing called "supply and demand", and the trainers are only one part of the equation. Show managers, riders, parents, and vets all play a part of where we've found ourselves today.

    I am a trainer who absolutely 100% promotes horsemanship. I train horses slowly and correctly. My riders don't get to move up until they've proven they can perform the current skills techincally correct and while producing a correct and proper horse (ie QUALITY). Showing is an earned privlidege, not a right. On rainy days we teach horse care, nutrition, conformation, everything.

    And you know what? I am having a hard time staying in business. Too many people want quick fixes, instant results, and moving up the ranks. They want the least amount of finanical and time commitment but with the greatest results. And the only way that happens is at the detriment of the horse.

    A few of my (former) trainer friends with a philosophy similar to mine have "altered" (no pun intended) their business model, getting their clients and horses into the show ring quicker and by any means possible. And you know what....barn is full, waiting list for lessons, horses selling for far more than they are worth.

    Until our riders change what they want from their riding experience, trainers will use and exploit for more money, vets will enable drug use, show manager will continue to provide 1,782 shows a year to chase points at.

    The culture we live in values the destination, not the journey.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown


    17 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    I think the bullies run the sport because the clients are fine with how they do things as long as they win.

    There's this thing called "supply and demand", and the trainers are only one part of the equation. Show managers, riders, parents, and vets all play a part of where we've found ourselves today.

    I am a trainer who absolutely 100% promotes horsemanship. I train horses slowly and correctly. My riders don't get to move up until they've proven they can perform the current skills techincally correct and while producing a correct and proper horse (ie QUALITY). Showing is an earned privlidege, not a right. On rainy days we teach horse care, nutrition, conformation, everything.

    And you know what? I am having a hard time staying in business. Too many people want quick fixes, instant results, and moving up the ranks. They want the least amount of finanical and time commitment but with the greatest results. And the only way that happens is at the detriment of the horse.

    A few of my (former) trainer friends with a philosophy similar to mine have "altered" (no pun intended) their business model, getting their clients and horses into the show ring quicker and by any means possible. And you know what....barn is full, waiting list for lessons, horses selling for far more than they are worth.

    Until our riders change what they want from their riding experience, trainers will use and exploit for more money, vets will enable drug use, show manager will continue to provide 1,782 shows a year to chase points at.

    The culture we live in values the destination, not the journey.
    This is an EXCELLENT post. This is exactly the problem I am seeing as a trainer. Riders do not want to work, do not want to learn if it is the least bit difficult--there isn't the desire to be a true horseman, but there is a desire to win ribbons...and unfortunately, to do it right, you can't have one without the other. Hence the problems that are out there.


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  6. #6
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    Default

    I sort of get, if not agree with, people like Armstrong who cheat-- I mean, there is a lot of money to be made there. I understand the cheating to make a living, or to get a big sponsorship.

    It's the amateurs/ parents of juniors I don't get-- the cheating to win ribbons that cost so much less than they're spending on training board, or to win a local triathlon or 5k and get that $10 plastic trophy. It seems like all you really "win" is the feeling of accomplishment, and if you cheat you're not even getting that.

    But yes, I do think there's an element of "Everyone is doing it, so it's justified/ necessary to level the playing field!" going on there.



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    I think the bullies run the sport because the clients are fine with how they do things as long as they win.

    There's this thing called "supply and demand", and the trainers are only one part of the equation. Show managers, riders, parents, and vets all play a part of where we've found ourselves today.

    I am a trainer who absolutely 100% promotes horsemanship. I train horses slowly and correctly. My riders don't get to move up until they've proven they can perform the current skills techincally correct and while producing a correct and proper horse (ie QUALITY). Showing is an earned privlidege, not a right. On rainy days we teach horse care, nutrition, conformation, everything.

    And you know what? I am having a hard time staying in business. Too many people want quick fixes, instant results, and moving up the ranks. They want the least amount of finanical and time commitment but with the greatest results. And the only way that happens is at the detriment of the horse.

    A few of my (former) trainer friends with a philosophy similar to mine have "altered" (no pun intended) their business model, getting their clients and horses into the show ring quicker and by any means possible. And you know what....barn is full, waiting list for lessons, horses selling for far more than they are worth.

    Until our riders change what they want from their riding experience, trainers will use and exploit for more money, vets will enable drug use, show manager will continue to provide 1,782 shows a year to chase points at.

    The culture we live in values the destination, not the journey.
    Yep, my recent life in quotes...
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  8. #8
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    Default

    Sorry kids, its the American way. Be proud.
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 14-16, 2014


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I have to say this isn't really anything new. I'm middle aged now but once in my life I did this for a living. It was in Saddlebreds and Morgans but finally at around the age of 24 (year 2001) I said, enough, I'm sick of pushing horses, breaking them down, so an owner can get a fancy blue ribbon, then sending the broken horse off to auction the next year. I quit joined the Army and I've lived a life. Now I'm getting back into horses and things haven't changed. But I have. I won't be doing this for a living. As stated above, it's difficult to take the high road and fill your barn. But I've found a nice group of people that enjoy showing for fun, winning when we can and HAVING FUN. Because frankly most of us aren't destined for greatness, but that's ok we can have fun on the journey to the middle.


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  10. #10
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    Sep. 12, 2007
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    Default

    All true, basically that is the deal. You just learn to live with it. Most of us are afraid to report drug abuse or improper behavior because it comes back to hurt you. You get ostricized and if you are an exhibitor you will get penalized for sure.



  11. #11
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    Default

    But is justifying loading the horses up with multiple substances by saying it's always gone on the way we want to go on?

    Remember, back in the good old days Ace was not verboten and there were no drug tests. Heck, non FEI Reiners and other stock horse disciplines don't test either (unless it's changed in the last 2 years). It's always been there.

    BUT not the stacked "prescription only" cocktails on sore horses (often provided by the show vet) to the extent we now allow by being bullied into silence?

    How did we get from legit use for therapeutic reasons to where we are now?
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Question Can I use this quote?

    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post

    The culture we live in values the destination, not the journey.
    Englishivy,

    I do not frequent the Hunter/Jumper forum, but I've been dropping in now-and-then and reading about Humble and the ensuing threads. I'd love to borrow your statement above for my current teaching class as I believe it also rings true for the students I have in my classroom these days.



  13. #13
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    Default

    Please immediately remove this thread as it creates a platform for continued defamation of my name and business. Your indecency can not continue to hide behind the Common Decency Aact as you have been supplied with a sworn statement in response to the New York Times article and I can sit across from Oprah and answer "No" proudly to each and every question posed.

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil..._Affidavit.pdf

    The questions have been ASKED and ANSWERED to the proper authorities and AHF LLC has issued the following press release as of January 19, 2013

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...s._Tauber.html
    Elizabeth Mandarino
    www.amberhillponies.com
    cell 908.397.0977



  14. #14
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    Default

    Ah, Lance, the Master of Offensive Deceit .


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    This all makes me sad. I for one WANT to learn to ride as best I can, and I cannot really afford the A shows. Sure, I would love to do them. But even of I could, you know what, I won't drug my horse. So I would probably spend a lot of money to lose before I even enter the ring. So schooling shows it is for me! I tend to think it's not as prevalent there. But who knows. I'm glad I do not see it, at least.
    “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
    ¯ Oscar Wilde



  16. #16
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    Jan. 27, 2009
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    Sometimes I think that we should just let people dope themselves and their animals and let the best doper win. (just sarcasm)
    It is really disheartening when the athletes you have admired has cheated and then justifies it by saying they had to do it to keep the playing field even. Really?

    So sad for every sport.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    I am a trainer who absolutely 100% promotes horsemanship. I train horses slowly and correctly. My riders don't get to move up until they've proven they can perform the current skills techincally correct and while producing a correct and proper horse (ie QUALITY). Showing is an earned privlidege, not a right. On rainy days we teach horse care, nutrition, conformation, everything.

    And you know what? I am having a hard time staying in business. Too many people want quick fixes, instant results, and moving up the ranks. They want the least amount of finanical and time commitment but with the greatest results. And the only way that happens is at the detriment of the horse.

    A few of my (former) trainer friends with a philosophy similar to mine have "altered" (no pun intended) their business model, getting their clients and horses into the show ring quicker and by any means possible. And you know what....barn is full, waiting list for lessons, horses selling for far more than they are worth.
    You sound like my trainer. And a client leaves, goes to another barn where they bit up, jack up the jumps, and the client is happy. But not the horse.

    My trainer has around 75 rideable horses on the farm. Out of those 75, there are probably about 3 that don't go in a snaffle. That is about 95% of her horses going in a snaffle, because she spends a lot of time making sure they get started correctly. If a horse is pulling or leaning or running to fences, she goes back to correct the problem (weak hind end, unbalanced, not bending) instead of going straight to bitting up. And then she ends up with SUPER easy five and six year olds no one wants to buy because they haven't been clocking around the 3ft.

    Also, as far as drugging at the A level versus the local level goes...I think the difference is what is trying to be achieved. At the A level someone is trying to get a blue ribbon against very good company. At the schooling level (from what I've seen) a lot more of it is trying to get a green rider or a green horse to have a good experience.
    Currently blogging for Chronicle of the Horse. Articles can be found here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/category...ryan-lefkowitz


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    Please immediately remove this thread as it creates a platform for continued defamation of my name and business. Your indecency can not continue to hide behind the Common Decency Aact as you have been supplied with a sworn statement in response to the New York Times article and I can sit across from Oprah and answer "No" proudly to each and every question posed.

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil..._Affidavit.pdf

    The questions have been ASKED and ANSWERED to the proper authorities and AHF LLC has issued the following press release as of January 19, 2013

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...s._Tauber.html

    While I appreciate the press release you have issued, you can see how folks might not consider that the best source of complete and unbiased facts. You are, after all, an interested party.

    Oh, and Armstrong previously would (and did) say he had not used illegal drugs, either. As I understand it, he aggressively went after those who said he had. In his story, that's the appalling part to me.

    That having been done, it makes the public more skeptical of "insiders" who seek to convince by informing us all of the truth.

    The lastest chapter in the Armstrong debacle makes it that much harder for people in parallel situations.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParadoxFarm View Post
    This all makes me sad. I for one WANT to learn to ride as best I can, and I cannot really afford the A shows. Sure, I would love to do them. But even of I could, you know what, I won't drug my horse. So I would probably spend a lot of money to lose before I even enter the ring. So schooling shows it is for me! I tend to think it's not as prevalent there. But who knows. I'm glad I do not see it, at least.
    That's a fine way to go. I have had lots of fun doing it and really enjoyed the horse I was teaching. I don't look for abuses of the system until I see them making the playing field very unlevel for me. If you can have the same fun for less money and less disappointment in the system, I think you are getting the long end of the stick.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  20. #20
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    MVP- I completely agree with you. I wish I would have stayed in the "backyard" shows. More fun, more honest, and less money.

    As per your post before, not only did Armstrong lied, and went after anyone who rebutted his story even his good friends, Betsy and Frankie Andreu (see New York Times article, Sports section, Sat. 19, 2013) but he also sued most of them for defamation.
    And according to a psychologist specializing in human behavior, his body language is very telling of someone still hiding the truth. She claims some of his answers to Oprah are more likely not sincere and he is still negating his wrong doings. Betsy Andreu watched the interview and couldn't believe how he lied even when he promised her he wanted to come clean.



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