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  1. #1
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    Default What will I get?

    I've got a Canadian Warmblood mare sired by Fantast (Etretat X Iliade) and out of an Anglo Arab mare, MJ Eleanor Rigby (Abi Sha Polka (arab) X Kathy's Caresse (Thoroughbred). I've just decided on a breeding to Valentino Z from Rising Star Farms. I'm super excited. Faith is a 16.1 Chestnut with two white hind socks and a big broken blaze.

    All of Fantast's offspring and kin have been big chestnuts, most with 2 white socks in the rear and a blaze, even his half brother Big Ben.

    I'm not up on color genetics, but I was wondering if there would be any way to tell whether I would get another chestnut, or would the foal be a bay? What does Valentino throw primarily? Colts or fillies?

    With the bloodline, I am suspecting that I am going to get a nice jumper, Faith is a PSG dressage mare, though folks have told me she is built well for either.

    Thoughts?
    A horse will save me



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2011
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    Here is the link to the colour calculator I use when I want to see possible foal colours
    http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
    Last edited by ShortStory; Jan. 17, 2013 at 01:10 PM. Reason: fixing the link



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Default

    You are breeding a chestnut to a chestnut?

    The only possibility is chestnut. No chance of bay or black at all.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Jun. 16, 2011
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    You are breeding a chestnut to a chestnut?

    The only possibility is chestnut. No chance of bay or black at all.
    I understood that she is breeding her chestnut mare to Valentino Z (bay).



  5. #5
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Default

    Ah, that changes things, doesn't it? I had a bit of trouble following the OP. Apparently time for more coffee!

    Has Valentino Z produced any chestnuts at all? If no, he may not carry the allele required, and if that is the case, you will get some variety of bay or black, depending on his agouti status and the agouti status of the mare. If he HAS produced a chestnut, then you've got a 50/50 shot at a red foal and a 50/50 shot at a black based (black or bay) foal.

    It looks like Firefly R on the sale page is by Valentino Z and is chestnut, so he does carry the e allele and can produce a chestnut. He's also got a black filly, so is heterozygous for agouti. If you test your mare for agouti, you can nail down the exact percentages of what you could get, but it's still 50% red based (chestnut) and 50% black based--how that black based chunk breaks out into bay or black depends on your mare.



  6. #6
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    Default

    This is all very good info. I've seen Valentino's black fillies ( I think there are 2), but the mothers were black, so I didn't know if that was from them. I'd love to have another bright chestnut, I LOVE Firefly! But I'd also love a nice clear bay, which most of his babies look to be. I've only seen one foal from her and it was by a big pinto warmblood stallion, Skeptic. The colt is a lovely bay tobiano.
    A horse will save me



  7. #7
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWEquestrian View Post
    This is all very good info. I've seen Valentino's black fillies ( I think there are 2), but the mothers were black, so I didn't know if that was from them. I'd love to have another bright chestnut, I LOVE Firefly! But I'd also love a nice clear bay, which most of his babies look to be.
    I don't think you understand. Let me try again.

    If Valentino Z were homozygous AA--that is, if he were bay with two copies of the gene that MAKES him bay--he could not produce a black foal, ever, regardless of the color mare. The fact that he HAS produced black foals means that he cannot possibly be homozygous agouti, which makes him Aa.

    Here is a basic article about agouti: http://animalgenetics.com/Agouti.htm

    Here is a basic article about red and black: http://animalgenetics.com/RFactor.htm

    Since you are breeding a bay to a chestnut, these are really the only genes at play.

    Based on Valentino Z's foals, we know he is EeAa--heterozygous for black/red, heterozygous for agouti. You mare is ee??--homozygous red and unknown agouti.

    It is easy to run down the potentials here for the foal based on your mare's agouti status:

    If AA:

    50% chestnut
    50% bay

    If Aa:

    50% chestnut
    37.5% bay
    12.5 % black

    If aa:
    50% chestnut
    25% bay
    25% black



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Valentino Z is a dark seal brown. If he's definitely Aa, then he cannot be the one responsible for producing "nice clear bay" foals, because he doesn't have any bay version of Agouti. If he's Aa, he's really Ata - heterozygous for brown.

    If his black foals really are black, and not dark brown like he is, then yes, he's got to be Ata. But if he does't have any true black foals, then he could be AtAt, homozygous for brown, and any "clear bay" is entirely up to the dam at that point.

    He cannot be AAt - hetero for both bay and brown, or he would BE bay.

    Does he have a foals page somewhere that I'm not seeing? I see the one foal on his stallion page who is bay, but the dam is also bay, so she provided the A

    ETA - found more foals on the sales page and see 1 who is most definitely black, out of a very dark brown mare, so yes, Valentino Z is Ata - hetero for brown. HE cannot make a bay foal, but he can allow one to occur, as seen
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
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    Oct. 9, 2009
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    Off topic but I had a Fantast gelding. Big chestnut with a sock and a stripe, sounds pretty standard! Lovely mover but very pig headed.
    Von Hendrix aka Jimi



  10. #10
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    Ah, JB, the pesky seal brown. I bow down to your obvious expertise there



  11. #11
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by mckenna310 View Post
    Off topic but I had a Fantast gelding. Big chestnut with a sock and a stripe, sounds pretty standard! Lovely mover but very pig headed.
    Sounds very familiar mckenna310. One of the reasons I chose Valentino Z is because his foal owners have stated that, regardless of the how hot the mare has been, the foals are over all level headed and easy to handle.
    A horse will save me


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2013
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    Default

    Thanks everyone. Lots to learn and look forward to. We'll just have to see what we get!
    A horse will save me



  13. #13
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Ah, JB, the pesky seal brown. I bow down to your obvious expertise there
    Ugh, power went out in the middle of my reply to this last night

    It certainly brings about more, and different % because we've got at least one At in the mix. But for all we know, the mare could be carrying At as well, either only At, or in conjunction with A. Or, just A, either Aa or AA.

    Here's the only color calculator that accounts for brown, so it's easy to put in the possible variations
    http://colorgenetics.info/equine/con...lor-calculator
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



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