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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    Actually, I have been silent for way too long.
    Actually, maybe not long enough. I suggest you lay low and stop making a bad name for yourself. Maybe you'll be lucky and some idiot will forget everything you've done.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים


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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    I feel like there is a really easy way to fix this: You get caught using drugs first time, year long suspension and HEFTY fine. No being on the show grounds at ALL for that year. Any sort of USHJA or USEF titles revoked. Names publicized monthly. At AA shows least 1 horse from each rated division is tested and the horses to be tested are drawn at random on the day of testing which will also be drawn at random on the first day of the show. No one except the appointed drug tester and steward is allowed to know the day and horses to be tested.
    Second time caught, 5 year suspension. Larger fine. Barred from all show grounds. All USEF and USHJA titles revoked.
    Third time you get caught, Life-long suspension. Very hefty fine. Don't even think about stepping on show grounds or we're suing you. Any and all titles revoked. Names publicized as they occur.

    Person signing in the trainer blank on all forms must be the riders primary coach for the weekend and the person responsible for any and all feed, supplements, or medication. If you are caught using a groom or barn managers name on a form in the blank, then both the trainer is suspended for 1 year and fined heavily. Banned from show grounds for the remainder of the show and any shows for the subsequent 1 year suspension.

    No trainer wants to lose their entire show business.

    Sometimes I think I may do a better job of writing rules for USEF than USEF does.
    Can't you see?

    You haven't yet reached the point in your thought process where it (slowly, in my case), dawns on you that it is not for lack of intelligent ideas that USEF can't clean up their house, it's that they WON'T clean up their house.


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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    I feel like there is a really easy way to fix this: You get caught using drugs first time, year long suspension and HEFTY fine. No being on the show grounds at ALL for that year. Any sort of USHJA or USEF titles revoked. Names publicized monthly. At AA shows least 1 horse from each rated division is tested and the horses to be tested are drawn at random on the day of testing which will also be drawn at random on the first day of the show. No one except the appointed drug tester and steward is allowed to know the day and horses to be tested.
    Second time caught, 5 year suspension. Larger fine. Barred from all show grounds. All USEF and USHJA titles revoked.
    Third time you get caught, Life-long suspension. Very hefty fine. Don't even think about stepping on show grounds or we're suing you. Any and all titles revoked. Names publicized as they occur.

    Person signing in the trainer blank on all forms must be the riders primary coach for the weekend and the person responsible for any and all feed, supplements, or medication. If you are caught using a groom or barn managers name on a form in the blank, then both the trainer is suspended for 1 year and fined heavily. Banned from show grounds for the remainder of the show and any shows for the subsequent 1 year suspension.

    No trainer wants to lose their entire show business.

    Sometimes I think I may do a better job of writing rules for USEF than USEF does.
    but it has been demonstrated time and time again that people will continue to do business with you. just buy a nice little farm adjacent to the most popular grounds in FL and even a horse killer can continue to be a "big man". until we ostracize these lepers we are doomed.


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  4. #124
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    Does the Ted Stevens act even apply to Ponies and Hunters? They certaiinly aren't Olympic disciplines. That's why the new FEI rules to apply FEI drug protocols to FEI covered disciplines don't apply to them.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  5. #125
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    True. But they don't get cover photos on official federation publications.

    Quote Originally Posted by fair judy View Post
    but it has been demonstrated time and time again that people will continue to do business with you. just buy a nice little farm adjacent to the most popular grounds in FL and even a horse killer can continue to be a "big man". until we ostracize these lepers we are doomed.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  6. #126
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    I believe forums like this help pressure the USEF to take a hard look at what is really going on in this sport. YOu will never be able to get rid of all the "lepers" because many rationalize their behavior as just trying to keep up with the competition. We need to keep on.



  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    I believe forums like this help pressure the USEF to take a hard look at what is really going on in this sport. YOu will never be able to get rid of all the "lepers" because many rationalize their behavior as just trying to keep up with the competition. We need to keep on.
    Quite true. No punishment (or threat thereof) will prevent the truly bad actors from doing whatever you're trying to keep them from doing, but sufficient punishment (or threat) will keep most people from doing it. This comes up at school when we discuss ways to prevent students from cheating as you can make people jump through certain hoops that will prevent most, but not the really bad ones, from cheating.

    Hopefully the use of a thereof will not convince EM that I am an attorney.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    True, but others have suggested a showgrounds ban on all needles, syringes, medications, etc. That's not practical for the scenario I described, where horses might not go home for a few weeks at a time, but are on a weekly schedule for a legal medication.
    And this is why I refuse to show my horses at these levels. With this constant showing (such as the Florida circuit), it's no wonder that these horses can't compete without "drugs"!

    I don't care if they have days "off," or get turnout (what little is available), etc, horses were never designed to live in stalls most of the time, with just enough exercise to keep them from getting too fit (and fresh), drugs to keep them calm and sound, and kept at a weight that in other sports would be considered overweight or obese. And that's what I see at these big hunter barns. And I'm amazed that people can justify it.

    And does anyone actually read the scientific studies and label information for Adequan and Legend? They are NOT supposed to be administered during shows. They're indication is for short-term treatment (Legend, 1x a week for 3 weeks; Adequan, Q 4 days for 28 days [7 injections]); in Adequan's case, while effects are noted rather quickly during treatment, the majority of positive results are noted during the recovery period after treatment is COMPLETE. These drugs should be administered prior to being at a show but I guess if horses are always at shows this isn't an option.

    I think, working on the vet med side of things, I'm getting tired of trainers who consider themselves veterinarians, pharmacologists, and chemists. They do not have the medical training to support what they are doing. The attitude is...if a little is good, more is better. And if veterinarians are promoting these practices, the motivation is money because the veterinarians I work with at top levels would be and are appalled at the practices common in the hunter industry.

    So before anyone claims their horse "has" to be able to have IV injections of drugs at show (other than in an emergency where the horse shouldn't show anyway), (1) back it up with veterinary scientific evidence that supports that practice, and (2) tell me where in the study it says this should be taking place at a show.

    There is so much more I'd like to say, but I really am ready for FEI rules to be implemented. I've heard all the reasons why they shouldn't be ("well, why can't an older has have an aspirin like I would take" and older horses will be "thrown away to nefarious ends," which speaks to much bigger problems than just drugs in our throwaway society), but apparently trainers and owners in this industry have reached a point where, as my husband the police officer would say, "your decision making abilities have been revoked" with regard to medicating their horses (at least while under the umbrella of a recognized horse show).
    Kelly Soldavin Harvest Moon Farm
    www.harvestmoonfarmpa.com


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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyS View Post
    There is so much more I'd like to say, but I really am ready for FEI rules to be implemented. I've heard all the reasons why they shouldn't be ("well, why can't an older has have an aspirin like I would take" and older horses will be "thrown away to nefarious ends," which speaks to much bigger problems than just drugs in our throwaway society), but apparently trainers and owners in this industry have reached a point where, as my husband the police officer would say, "your decision making abilities have been revoked" with regard to medicating their horses (at least while under the umbrella of a recognized horse show).
    That's a pretty big baby you're throwing out with the bath water.

    The fact that some people misuse medication does not mean that every horse owner does, just as the fact that some vets dispense completely inappropriate substances to laymen does not mean all vets do the same thing.

    I believe on a previous thread, somebody mentioned the number of drug tests done each year by USEF (thousands), and the percentage that came back positive for anything against the rules. I don't remember the number, but it was extremely low.

    I am one of those who figures that if I can take an Advil once in a while, a horse can get a Bute tablet once in a while. I also follow the USEF medication rules to the letter, and have the clean record to prove it. There are plenty of horse people who do the same thing, but nobody puts us on the front page of the Times for that behavior.

    I think the D&M rules need improvement, but as always, it's to catch the small number of people who will do anything to get ahead, not the vast majority who are already following the rules. Just as in any sport.

    And if you don't think horses are designed to go to shows, nobody is forcing you to do it. However, the fact is horses were designed by Mother Nature to wander the countryside eating grass all their lives, not get ridden or worked in any way by humans. So everyone who rides a horse is already going against the horse's designed purpose. It's all a question of degree.


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  10. #130
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    Exhibit "Amberhill" and the NY Times exposé are just the tip of the iceberg. E. Mandarino didn't dream up the regimens she used on her own...I hadn't even realized that TWO other ponies collapsed at the 2012 USEF Pony Finals, but I did rewind and watch the footage of USHJA cover boy Scott Stewart pulling out of the in and out during the Derby Final after lurching over the previous fences on the course. Too bad they didn't show the schooling jumps--they must have been lovely.

    I wonder how prominent our sport is compared to other 'minor' sports...say...cycling. Anyone watch the Lance Armstrong interview last night? Just imagine any number of our comparably dominant hunter riders squirming in that chair and answering the same questions.


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  11. #131
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    Last edited by BaroquePony; Jan. 18, 2013 at 06:58 AM.



  12. #132
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    MHM, until the testers concentrate with regularity on the WINNERS in the big money classes across the board with random testing elsewhere, odds are that the users won't be caught, because the whole testing system is structured to look the other way.

    And as I said, what we see at the shows is TIP of the iceberg. When was the last time you tried to BUY a horse?

    Want to know the real reason people keep buying from Europe? Because pretty much what you see is what you get there. They don't have the smorgasbord of vet procedures used here to "prep" horses for a PPE to increase the likelihood they will pass.

    How many of today's amazing 'winners' turn out to have staying power once they change hands? Near zero if you look into that question.


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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJump View Post
    MHM, until the testers concentrate with regularity on the WINNERS in the big money classes across the board with random testing elsewhere, odds are that the users won't be caught, because the whole testing system is structured to look the other way.
    As I've said before, the random testing approach protects ALL the horses, not just the winners. Plenty of people show who are very unlikely to finish at the top of the class and they know it. Their horses deserve protection, too. Additional concentrated testing at the big events could be an improvement to the current D&M program.

    And as I said, what we see at the shows is TIP of the iceberg. When was the last time you tried to BUY a horse?

    Want to know the real reason people keep buying from Europe? Because pretty much what you see is what you get there. They don't have the smorgasbord of vet procedures used here to "prep" horses for a PPE to increase the likelihood they will pass.
    The horses I buy are nowhere near the show ring when I buy them. And I would say the main reason people often buy from Europe is to get more bang for their buck, since the horses are often much further along, because the shows there are much cheaper and the young horses can have some show experience and still be affordable.

    How many of today's amazing 'winners' turn out to have staying power once they change hands? Near zero if you look into that question.
    Some of them do go on for years. I know a wonderful junior hunter who was Horse of the Year in our zone five or six times with at least three different kids. He showed until he was about 20, and retired absolutely sound and happy. And for another example, the junior hunter Lyle was getting good ribbons last fall at Indoors, as he's been doing for at least a decade.

    There are many ponies who win year after year after year with different kids, since the kids outgrow them and they change hands.

    And for those who think FEI rules would solve all the problems, how many times have the results from the Olympics been revised after the drug tests came back? Isn't it two of the last three Olympic games? Or is it three of the last four? Unfortunately, there are always people who will try to cheat, no matter what rules are in place.


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  14. #134
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    [
    I wonder how prominent our sport is compared to other 'minor' sports...say...cycling. Anyone watch the Lance Armstrong interview last night? Just imagine any number of our comparably dominant hunter riders squirming in that chair and answering the same questions.[/QUOTE]

    JustJump, I watched and hearing him confess to the drugs and having watch how he denied it before, his arrogance, and his excuses for doping, and not thinking there was anything wrong with it, is very similar to the behavior of many trainers at the AA horseshows. He also started lawsuits against most of his friends and fellow teammates that were telling the truth about his behavior. But he was thought of as a "winner" so he got away with it. Very similar, very similar to what goes on in the USEF. All those young people wearing the bracelets LIVESTRONG, etc. It is like reading those articles about certain personalities in the horseshow world talk about horsemanship and getting rewarded for it. But he got caught, so there is hope.


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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    And I would say the main reason people often buy from Europe is to get more bang for their buck, since the horses are often much further along, because the shows there are much cheaper and the young horses can have some show experience and still be affordable.
    Not to mention that when they come over here they can lose their show experience and compete in the pre-greens.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.


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  16. #136
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    One big issue that I see with combating the drugging is that some of the most dangerous drugs and injections are being given because they do not test.

    I am not sure how to get around the fact that we can tell if a horse has stacked nsaids but not if he is being injected with mag. Neither of these is in the best interest of the horses.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.


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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Any more so than reasoned, well thought out posts?
    Agreed...... but numbers don't lie. We wouldn't always have to write out our opinions, leaving us open to 'all kinds of criticism', we'd just be agreeing or disagreeing with the poster.Hundreds of thumbs up or down make COTHers opinions pretty plain. A succinct way to get the hunter/ jumper communities feelings about an issue or a post across to the poster.....and we wouldn't have to wade through dozens, sometimes hundreds of posts, saying the same thing.
    Of course, some of the COTHers are extremely smart and witty as well, making some of these sound out threads very entertaining and /or amusing. I would never want to forego any of that
    As regards USEF and rules, who decides who's doing the drugging? Trainer, groom, owner, it could be any one of those.'. So how do you prove who's done it and who to punish? It's easy to point fingers at trainers but I know of several trainers who have had to contend with discovering that one of their owners was acting as Dr. Feelgood and drugging their own animals. Who's gets suspended then?
    Last edited by Purepony; Jan. 18, 2013 at 08:14 AM.


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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    . Names publicized monthly. At AA shows least 1 horse from each rated division is tested and the horses to be tested are drawn at random on the day of testing which will also be drawn at random on the first day of the show. No one except the appointed drug tester and steward is allowed to know the day and horses to be tested.
    Second time caught, 5 year suspension. Larger fine. Barred from all show grounds. All USEF and USHJA titles revoked.
    Third time you get caught, Life-long suspension. Very hefty fine. Don't even think about stepping on show grounds or we're suing you. Any and all titles revoked. Names publicized as they occur.

    Person signing in the trainer blank on all forms must be the riders primary coach for the weekend and the person responsible for any and all feed, supplements, or medication. If you are caught using a groom or barn managers name on a form in the blank, then both the trainer is suspended for 1 year and fined heavily. Banned from show grounds for the remainder of the show and any shows for the subsequent 1 year suspension.

    No trainer wants to lose their entire show business.

    Sometimes I think I may do a better job of writing rules for USEF than USEF does.
    The names of suspended individuals ARE published daily on the USEF website.

    Testing IS random. The testers decide what placings they want to check and I'm
    not sure the steward evens knows what classes, placings will be tested.

    If an owner keeps their horse at home then THEY should be signing the entry blank. Signing as Coach implies Pro status which is not the case for many owners.
    your proposal would force owners to hire a Pro just to sign as Coach. And Coach is not the PR in a drug/med violation. Under the current rules they barn manager is the PR if they are feeding the horse. So who would you like to be responsible for sanctions? What rule changes would be needed? Should the PR be the rider ( same as FEI rules)?

    As has been demonstrated several times a lifetime suspension has not cost trainers to lose business. They can still buy, sell and train just off show grounds. It does make things a little inconvenient for them though. A punitive fine is a great idea,



  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHorse View Post
    One big issue that I see with combating the drugging is that some of the most dangerous drugs and injections are being given because they do not test.

    I am not sure how to get around the fact that we can tell if a horse has stacked nsaids but not if he is being injected with mag. Neither of these is in the best interest of the horses.
    This. It seems most people who are calling for larger fines and lifetimes suspensions, etc. are missing the bigger point. The most dangerous drugs for the horses are untestable at this point in time, while most trainers are careful about how they administer NSAIDs, knowing that there is a fair chance their horses can be tested (I only do a limited number of shows per year and I see the testers lots).

    We need a cultural change in the hunters and I'm not sure that can happen given the amount of money involved at the top end of the discipline, especially given the facts that trainers make most of their money buying and selling ammie-friendly mounts and most judges are also trainers.


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  20. #140
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    i think a livestrong bracelet would serve a better purpose around some of these people's NECKS.


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