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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I wouldn't assume that your interpretation of this situation is necessarily the one that USEF would use.
    It isn't a matter of interpretation. GR411 is titled "Conditions for Therapeutic Administrations of Forbidden Substances" and is very clear under what circumstances a medication report should be filed, i.e., when a horse competing under the therapeutic substances provisions is administered a forbidden substance. Dexamethasone is not a forbidden substance so filling out a medication report because you treated your horse for hives and might test over the threshold limit is unnecessary and does nothing for you under the rules to mitigate a positive test result. There is a special provision in GR411 for filing a report for the administration of banamine, which is a therapeutic substance, when a horse has already been given another NSAID to potentially avoid a stacking violation. Given that the Steward has to review and sign each medication report, filing them for no legitimate reason seems like a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere by busy Stewards.


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  2. #202
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    You're absolutely right, I never assume the USEF will interpret anything a certain way. But I do always assume the rules only offer a degree of protection if it's expressedly provided.


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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    The limit for dex is 3 ng/mL per USEF Therapeutic Substance Provisions. I didn't see anything that indicates a D & M Report Form would make it acceptable for a horse to test over that limit, but I could have missed that part.
    I'm not saying it is "acceptable" for a horse to be over the limit simply because a drug was used at higher than allowed dosages for a valid therapuetic purpose.
    What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.

    In my particular case, I withdrew the horse from competition for the duration of the show.
    But he was on the grounds, had been entered, and was theoretically eligible to be drug tested.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  4. #204
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    Jan. 9, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.


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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.
    And I maintain that what disciplinary action is taken might depend on whether there was evidence that there was a legitimate reason the drug was in excess.
    I'm not saying the violation would be dismissed, I'm saying it might result in less of a penalty than if there were no report detailing the dose that was given, the reason, and the time it was administered.

    If I were making the rules, dexamethasone would be a prohibited substance, any road.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  6. #206
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    Sep. 24, 2001
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    So you wasted everyones time to file a DM report on a non-showing horse? You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.



  7. #207
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    Wasted everyone's time?
    Right.
    Took the steward all of about a minute and a half.
    Horses had been entered and mine was scratched.
    The other had several earlier classes scratched, but trainer and owner chose to wait and see how things went before scratching all of them.

    I was fine with it, steward was fine with it, sorry it twisted up y'all's knickers so tightly.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  8. #208
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    So you wasted everyones time to file a DM report on a non-showing horse? You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.
    No one's time was wasted --- and if it were a multi-week show, the earlier treatment might well explain the presence of a detectable amount in the horse's system.

    Whatever the rules -- its seems that a number of people are criticizing disclosure of information here because it was not mandated ....

    Since when is it good to discourage the disclosure of information. If our rules do that, then they are not really productive rules IMHO


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  9. #209
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    I would like to see a D&M report required for dex always... and I would like to see it be a public and publicly accessible record.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  10. #210
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.
    Where in the rule does it say that a horse may be tested if it has not been entered in the first place? That would truly be a waste of resources.

    GR402 Testing.
    1. Horses and/or ponies competing at a Licensed Competition are subject to examination by a licensed veterinarian who must be appointed by the Administrator of
    the Equine Drugs and Medications Program. Said appointed veterinarian, with the
    approval of the Administrator, may appoint a technician to perform certain duties
    under this Rule. The examination may include physical, urine, blood tests and/or
    any other test or procedure at the discretion of said veterinarian necessary to effectuate the purposes of this rule. Said veterinarian may examine any or all horses
    and/or ponies in a class or all classes in a competition or any horses and/or ponies
    entered in any class, whether in competition or not, if on the competition grounds,
    or any horse and/or pony withdrawn by any exhibitor within 24 hours prior to a
    class for which it has been entered.



  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post

    or any horse and/or pony withdrawn by any exhibitor within 24 hours prior to a
    class for which it has been entered.
    It was this portion of the rule right here that prompted the filing.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  12. #212
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    Feb. 10, 2012
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    This thread, and others like it, invariably deteriorate into an argument between the acceptable amounts of this drug or that, intent, should a horse be shown on any med, etc. Most everyone has valid points . The number of posts indicates everyone's sincerity and passion for their horses well being.
    My Dad used to say that by the time we were 5 years old, our basic personality was pretty well in place; Our moral compass was set. Given the number of 'horsemen/women' out there who believe that chemical enhancement rather than hard work and training is the optimum way to win, it would seem that their parents set an extremely poor example for them as kids, teaching them the message that any road to # 1 was a good road. Fines and suspensions won't change what they are. Their self esteem is already so low that 'cheating' with drugs and putting horse and rider at risk is acceptable as long as they keep their customers happy with ribbons and trophies.They are still little kids, looking for parental admiration.
    The thing is, they don't care what we think. They don't care about the USEF rules. Like a little kid, they only care about getting caught in the act. That they'd like to avoid. So protest away, argue the finer points, but know that a cheater is a cheater, period. No healthy animal needs a regimen of multiple medications!!! A gram of Bute after a hard day is one thing but when the sheer number of meds ultimately serves to mask emerging and potentially lethal issues, as an industry, we've gone too far.
    If all you COTHers are serious, then stop arguing on line. If you're at a show and you see drugging going on, whip out your trusty cell and take pictures. Report abuse to the stewards. Be the good child your parents raised you to be and do the right thing to protect our sport and our animals.


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  13. #213
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    It was this portion of the rule right here that prompted the filing.
    Yes, my point was that the horse must be entered in the first place before testing becomes an issue.

    If I bring an extra horse that is not entered in any classes, it doesn't get tested just because it's on the showgrounds.


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  14. #214
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purepony View Post

    If all you COTHers are serious, then stop arguing on line. If you're at a show and you see drugging going on, whip out your trusty cell and take pictures. Report abuse to the stewards. Be the good child your parents raised you to be and do the right thing to protect our sport and our animals.
    Um.. If a dead pony, with a person who admitted injecting it, a medication list ,and a USEF member filing an official protest , ends with USEF saying it is unable to do anything because it cannot force cooperation by the party involved, how on earth do you think having "cell phone photos" of people will have any effect?

    The article mentioned in the title of this thread didn't really put USEF in a good light, their response to the issue was weak. Hopefully something will change. I'm not holding my breath..

    ETA I think discussion is a good thing.
    Last edited by skydy; Jan. 20, 2013 at 06:07 PM.


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  15. #215
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    Pictures of what, exactly? How is a picture of anything supposed to be proof of illegal drugging? You'd have to have uninterrupted video starting with a clear view of the label on the bottle as the shot was drawn up.



  16. #216
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBoylen View Post
    Pictures of what, exactly? How is a picture of anything supposed to be proof of illegal drugging? You'd have to have uninterrupted video starting with a clear view of the label on the bottle as the shot was drawn up.
    Exactly.
    Purepony, It's not that simple. Thus the discussion...



  17. #217
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    Jan. 27, 2000
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    There is no way to identify - for the purposes of drug testing - a non showing/never entered horse.


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  18. #218
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    In this age of technology, it would be relatively simple to require those showing to enter any drugs administered to a horse at a show -- having terminals available to those showing already exists. A remote secure system with a login is not new or challenging technology.

    People who cheat will still cheat BUT it would be interesting to see who enters nothing == and it would be equally interesting to have a record of what is actually being administered. Having this kind of data - aggregated would allow all kinds of interesting analysis of what is actually being administered at shows and for what.

    In an information age, it is amazing how little information is actually available in this area.


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  19. #219
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    Feb. 10, 2012
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    All right, maybe pictures are ineffective, even if the animal pictured has no drug form placed with the show. Actually. I was thinking more along the lines of plastering photos of individuals injecting horses all over the Internet. Unsuspecting owners would begin to get the message and ask ?????. You could even have a FB page just to share. But I'll accept it's a bad idea. If USEF won't act, and the BNTs are soooo powerful, and we as horsemen can only vent on boards like this and do nothing, then I surrender. Drug away. Why put ourselves on the line when everyone seems to agree that the situation for hunter horses/ponies and Eq horses is hopeless. There are lots of you out there. Maybe if each of you sent a signed (as well as e-mail copy) of your outrage and ideas to USEF, along with your membership number, they might take you seriously.



  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purepony View Post
    All right, maybe pictures are ineffective, even if the animal pictured has no drug form placed with the show. Actually. I was thinking more along the lines of plastering photos of individuals injecting horses all over the Internet. Unsuspecting owners would begin to get the message and ask ?????. .
    There are many legal injectable substances that do not require a "drug form". Most owners are aware of that.



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