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  1. #101
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Dex is bad when used to the legal limits on an ongoing basis.
    ACTH is bad
    Dex+ACTH is really really really bad.

    Guess which one is less likely to get abused in Canada?
    Agreed. I am just not sure I like the trade off of increased use of something else we can't limit or test for. ACTH use became so widespread in Canada I have to assume as a direct result of the Dex ban. I don't think it's nearly as common here, either alone or (dangerously) with Dex. Dex we can control to some extent. I'm not certain which rule has the widest benefit of safer practices for more horses.



  2. #102
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    Nov. 30, 2006
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    Where have you heard that this ACTH is widely used in Canada? Because honestly, I've never even heard of the stuff.

    And what does it do? What's the benefit?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #103
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    Dec. 25, 2005
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    Gumshoe-- ACTH is a naturally-produced hormone that causes the adrenals to make glucocorticosteroids. Thats the same class that Dex is in. You're just going "through the back door" to get there.



  4. #104
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Alpharetta, GA
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    Just ducked into my office to check the progress of this thread. Who is familiar with the old past time- Bear Baiting? Kinda reminds me of that.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    May. 17, 2000
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    I think there are individuals who stoop to combining dex/ACTH (poor horse doesn't know whether he's coming or going, cortisol-wise). ACTH is tougher to detect (as far as I know) since it is a substance the body naturally produces to control gluco-corticosteroid production (did I get that right?) but it is probably testable at some level, just not sure how well... Still this is an issue that the FEI has no doubt dealt with. I wonder if they do have testing for it, or it's just everyone's deep dark little secret?

    So there is a point to be made when we talk about the testability of something, but to my mind, it's never the best approach to defend something because "this is bad but that would be worse." It's admitting defeat before you even start. Personally, I don't understand why we continue to allow a drug that really is not used for ... hives... in the vast majority of instances. It's used because people believe it acts "like a benadryl" and it also is a potent anti-inflammatory that can be stacked on top of an NSAID legally. (As an aside, I would be interested to know if use of dex has gone up since stacking NSAIDs is no longer allowed).

    So everyone will say with a remarkably straight face that it is used for "skin conditions" and "allergies" and I do give them full credit for not laughing hysterically when they say it... but really, we all know that isn't what it is used for in the vast majority of cases.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
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    Nov. 30, 2006
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    I saw a horse at an A show this past summer with TERRIBLE hives. Rider fully intended to give him dex AFTER the show. He did just fine, hives and all, thank you very much.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Oct. 10, 2001
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    West Coast of Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumshoe View Post
    I saw a horse at an A show this past summer with TERRIBLE hives. Rider fully intended to give him dex AFTER the show. He did just fine, hives and all, thank you very much.
    Probably because that horse really had hives

    as DMK pointed out, Dex isn't always used for "real" allergies, and in which case needs to be given to the horse during the show to "help" it compete.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #108
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    Nov. 30, 2006
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    I absolutely understand that, my point is just that there is no need for dex. Why allow it at all? A horse can show with bloody hives. That's just not a good enough reason to allow its use. And probable misuse.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Jun. 4, 2012
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    Louisa County, Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    As a non-attorney, is it illegal for someone who works in law to give their legal opinion publicly? Just not sure why its a big deal whether 1) a poster is a lawyer 2) how that is relevant to whether they can post their own legal opinions (or advice).

    But maybe once you enter law, you are held to a higher standard? On a related note- could a vet post proposed treatment and get sued if it killed the horse? I don't wish to derail the (already-derailed) thread, just trying to understand.
    A long time ago, right here in Virginia, I was an attorney. I believe my license is currently suspended; I'd love to tell you all that's due to a raging affair I had with a sexy judge hearing a case I was arguing; but sadly it's just due to the fact that when I quit practicing, I quit paying dues to the Virginia Bar Association.

    Having issued that mea culpa:

    1. Someone who happens to be a lawyer, but is not acting in a professional capacity on behalf of a client, is free to speak on any topic just as much, or as little, as any other person;

    2. He or she has no ethical obligation, in that "not acting in a professional capacity," to identify self as an attorney;

    3. Also, another poster suggested that lawyers were barred from commenting on this board, and could only comment directly to her attorney. This is not true. A lawyer representing a client in an active case, who knows that the other party in the case has their own lawyer, is required to communicate only with the other party's lawyer. But that is not the situation here (yet?);

    3. The precept "innocent until proven guilty" is shorthand for our cherished legal tradition that the State must prove an accused criminal guilty of every element of a crime, beyond a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors or judge hearing the case. It may or may not apply in other settings. It does not apply in civil cases (hence, OJ Simpson acquitted of murder in criminal court, yet found liable for the deaths in the civil case). I do not know what standard of proof applies in the Olympic-athlete regulations that were being discussed. But the attorney commenting earlier was correct that an athletic tribunal is not the same as a criminal court;

    4. And whether she was correct or not, seems healthy to take with reasonable skepticism any opinions you see posted here. Including this one. Wait, what?

    4. In complete seriousness, I would so love to be able to answer my office phone, "This is Ms. V F, Esquire." I edited the name of the earlier attorney posting because I see it has been edited by the Mods; but it is an excellent name. My own name is rather boring *sighs*

    5. With all the references to Tammy sounds like Tanya Tucker, does anyone else just want to start belting out "Delta Dawn?"


    AND, in all seriousness, I will look forward to hearing more reports on actions taken by the USEF throughout this meeting.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martha Drum View Post
    5. With all the references to Tammy sounds like Tanya Tucker, does anyone else just want to start belting out "Delta Dawn?"
    Well, now we will! Thanks a lot for that torture.

    And the other information as well.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #111
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    May. 6, 2006
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    rapidan,virginia
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    Oh. My. Goodness. Martha Drum, I am taking you out for a drink. Shall we meet somewhere around Lake Anna?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martha Drum View Post
    A long time ago, right here in Virginia, I was an attorney. I believe my license is currently suspended; I'd love to tell you all that's due to a raging affair I had with a sexy judge hearing a case I was arguing; but sadly it's just due to the fact that when I quit practicing, I quit paying dues to the Virginia Bar Association.

    Having issued that mea culpa:

    1. Someone who happens to be a lawyer, but is not acting in a professional capacity on behalf of a client, is free to speak on any topic just as much, or as little, as any other person;

    2. He or she has no ethical obligation, in that "not acting in a professional capacity," to identify self as an attorney;

    3. Also, another poster suggested that lawyers were barred from commenting on this board, and could only comment directly to her attorney. This is not true. A lawyer representing a client in an active case, who knows that the other party in the case has their own lawyer, is required to communicate only with the other party's lawyer. But that is not the situation here (yet?);

    3. The precept "innocent until proven guilty" is shorthand for our cherished legal tradition that the State must prove an accused criminal guilty of every element of a crime, beyond a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors or judge hearing the case. It may or may not apply in other settings. It does not apply in civil cases (hence, OJ Simpson acquitted of murder in criminal court, yet found liable for the deaths in the civil case). I do not know what standard of proof applies in the Olympic-athlete regulations that were being discussed. But the attorney commenting earlier was correct that an athletic tribunal is not the same as a criminal court;

    4. And whether she was correct or not, seems healthy to take with reasonable skepticism any opinions you see posted here. Including this one. Wait, what?

    4. In complete seriousness, I would so love to be able to answer my office phone, "This is Ms. V F, Esquire." I edited the name of the earlier attorney posting because I see it has been edited by the Mods; but it is an excellent name. My own name is rather boring *sighs*

    5. With all the references to Tammy sounds like Tanya Tucker, does anyone else just want to start belting out "Delta Dawn?"


    AND, in all seriousness, I will look forward to hearing more reports on actions taken by the USEF throughout this meeting.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy: http://tinyurl.com/kj7x53c
    Stash: http://tinyurl.com/mmm3p4e


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #112
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Mondays they might get hand walked, or turned out if there are paddocks available, or whatever. But if you're at a show like WEF or Hits or Kentucky for multiple weeks, you don't ship your horses hundreds of miles home on Sunday and drag them back to the show the next day. You keep them on the showgrounds, which means you need to have their weekly medications like Adequan or Legend on the showgrounds as well. Which you might give on a Monday.
    That would be fine. I didn't say "not at the showgrounds," I said, "not on the same day they're competing." Or at the very least, at the end of the day after the last class.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  13. #113
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    That would be fine. I didn't say "not at the showgrounds," I said, "not on the same day they're competing." Or at the very least, at the end of the day after the last class.
    True, but others have suggested a showgrounds ban on all needles, syringes, medications, etc. That's not practical for the scenario I described, where horses might not go home for a few weeks at a time, but are on a weekly schedule for a legal medication.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #114
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Co
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    An online petition has been created at Change.org to demand the USEF remove the Temporary Suspension Rule GR609 which is in direct conflict to USOC NGB Rules and Regulations and the Ted Stevens Act.

    https://www.change.org/petitions/uni...are_after_sign

    Please support this cause and show the USEF that members demand CHANGE and our rights to Due Process.
    You're kidding, right?

    The problem many of us are having with the USEF is that we feel they are not punishing people who violate D/M rules.

    I think most of us have no problem with someone being temporarily suspended when the pony they are injecting drops dead at a show. It allows time for investigation etc...


    11 members found this post helpful.

  15. #115
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    Feb. 28, 2008
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    missouri
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    GEE. EM, i still haven't been served by your legions of lawyers!!!!! and while i use a screen name it is AS YOU WELL KNOW commonly known. sarah hochschwender. please try to spell it correctly.

    i understand that Tucker has other viable (and genuinely BNT) equine oriented clients who value her services. you must be paying that woman a fortune to deal with the (dis)likes of yourself.

    our business is being taken over by vile and unprincipled individuals. we cannot rely on the organization to fix this. until the cheaters, the posers and the genuinely incompetent have NO paying clients this will not stop. you cannot legislate fair mindedness. the governing body cannot create a structure that will allow individuals to act in varying situations and be responsive to the day to day needs of their horses. look at the discussion about DEX. there is nothing inherently wrong with that drug, but the MISUSE of it is an abomination.

    now, elizabeth, you have my address. have at it.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  16. #116
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    Feb. 22, 2000
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    passepartout
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    Rich white people are funny. So funny.

    The USEF wants certified trainers to know how to find the rules -- which shouldn't be confused with actually learning and knowing the rules -- so David O'Connor, in all his wisdom as departing president, floated the idea of an open book quiz.

    My friends, the proverbial bar is now a ground pole. It couldn't possibly be set any lower.

    Oh, scratch that, it could. John Long (if you remember back to 2010, he was the man who didn't realize that WEG prices were extortionate because he was vacationing in Europe) has this to say about the maelstrom of negative national-news publicity: "I see this as an opportunity."

    The proverbial bar, like John Long's head, is now buried in the sand.

    The USEF is not going to change on its own. There's the Humble incident, then there's hard-partying Urico, then there's two ponies dropping at the business end of a needle at Pony Finals, and the December 1 casualty in Ohio. This is the hunter/jumper world, but it's starting to sound a bit like a Mexican rodeo, at least from the horses' perspective.

    In response to public outcry over the deaths and injuries to horses at Mexican rodeos, nine states have enacted legislation banning those activities. In California, a first-time offender is charged with a misdemeanor if he/she "intentionally trips or fells an equine by the legs by any means whatsoever for the purposes of entertainment or sport." In Arizona, you're prohibited from "knowingly or intentionally [tripping] an equine for entertainment or sport", and you can be fined $1000 and spend two days in jail for it.

    Injecting hunter ponies with magnesium shortly before a class is only done for either entertainment or sport. It's not done for veterinary purposes.

    The USEF doping nexus -- the unethical trainers, owners and riders as well as the officers, administrators, and committees who make the rules to protect themselves and their system -- needs to be held to the same standards as other less savory, less wealthy, less well-connected animal abusers.

    If John Long sees an 'opportunity' in the current crisis, just think of the potential for greater 'opportunity' when he gets the first knock on his door from a law enforcement investigative team with subpoena powers.

    That's what it's going to take to make any real changes.


    18 members found this post helpful.

  17. #117
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    In case anyone is interested, here is the FEI list of drugs that are either banned or controlled:
    http://www.feicleansport.org/2013%20...ted%20List.pdf

    Here are the FEI rules on both doping and controlled medication violations:
    http://www.feicleansport.org/EADCMRs...f_1Jan2013.pdf

    They make for very interesting reading and should be compared to the USEF Rules. The controlled medication rules start after page 23.

    The vet rules are also interesting and can be found on the FEI website under Clean Sport.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  18. #118
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    Using FEI rules would put a stop to much of this behavior, however it won't happen.
    USEF doesn't have the balls to enforce the rules it already has.
    Go to their website and look at the penalties given to rule breakers.

    Are you suspended?

    Going to show anyway?

    Get caught?

    You could be "censured" and fined. Ooh, that'll teach you!

    JER, The bar is set incredibly low and you described it well.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #119
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    Jun. 20, 2012
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    I feel like there is a really easy way to fix this: You get caught using drugs first time, year long suspension and HEFTY fine. No being on the show grounds at ALL for that year. Any sort of USHJA or USEF titles revoked. Names publicized monthly. At AA shows least 1 horse from each rated division is tested and the horses to be tested are drawn at random on the day of testing which will also be drawn at random on the first day of the show. No one except the appointed drug tester and steward is allowed to know the day and horses to be tested.
    Second time caught, 5 year suspension. Larger fine. Barred from all show grounds. All USEF and USHJA titles revoked.
    Third time you get caught, Life-long suspension. Very hefty fine. Don't even think about stepping on show grounds or we're suing you. Any and all titles revoked. Names publicized as they occur.

    Person signing in the trainer blank on all forms must be the riders primary coach for the weekend and the person responsible for any and all feed, supplements, or medication. If you are caught using a groom or barn managers name on a form in the blank, then both the trainer is suspended for 1 year and fined heavily. Banned from show grounds for the remainder of the show and any shows for the subsequent 1 year suspension.

    No trainer wants to lose their entire show business.

    Sometimes I think I may do a better job of writing rules for USEF than USEF does.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים


    5 members found this post helpful.

  20. #120
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    Actually, I have been silent for way too long.
    I heartily disagree.


    16 members found this post helpful.

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