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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    But you are a vegetarian
    Believe it or not, there are people out there who care about other human beings.
    Regardless of what their own beliefs or convictions may be.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    The poll was conducted by Public Opinion Strategies:

    "The opposition to horse slaughter crosses all lines -- it doesn't
    matter what race you are, where you live, or whether you vote Republican or
    Democrat -- Americans are opposed to horse slaughter by an overwhelming
    margin,"


    As for your slanted questions, one could just as easily ask:

    How do you feel about our government spending money to slaughter horses when our educational system is under funded?

    If you think it's so biased, why haven't the folks like David Duquette and Sue Wallis conducted a poll? They are the ones consistently getting shot down when trying to build slaughter houses.
    Great question...and then, the unbiased pollster would say..do you think it is more important to support a slaughter industry with money taken from the education of your children or do you think the slaughter industry should have to pay its own way..(we were able to "probe"...we were not supposed to but we did

    Another pollster trick is: most of the polls are actrually filled out "in a BAR". Yup..Heffering who distributed the enormous Goldfarb poll paper discovered so many were giving the money to friends in the bar and they would go through the 4-500 pages and everyone will fill in "a correct" answer. How did they cover that? For the name of the person they used the reverse directory which gave names and addresses.

    That is why political polls are no considered accurate and why slaughter polls are usually slanted.


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  3. #363
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    Some are forgetting that the slaughter plants offered to pay the USDA inspectors, but they were denied that also, because, well, the idea is not that the USDA didn't have money for them, as they insisted, but that, under pressure, they wanted the plants closed.

    That is so currently, the plants wanting to open have offered to pay the inspector's salaries but no, same reason.


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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Think that can't happen in the U.S.? Think again.
    This is where you are wrong but you are exposing your alliance with RARA groups. Vegan groups etc.

    Packaging, mislable and substitution are FRAUD.

    They have nothing to do with North American Slaughter

    Have you read recent updates. It appears oranges, apples lettuce, shrimp, etc are ALL victims of gangsers and their desire to falsify papers.

    By trying to taint ALL meat production you are entering step two. But it is your arrogance that has you thinking you have already won the anti slaughter debate.

    Far from it. Politicians understand THEY WERE HAD...big time...last time.

    Nice try however


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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Some are forgetting that the slaughter plants offered to pay the USDA inspectors, but they were denied that also, because, well, the idea is not that the USDA didn't have money for them, as they insisted, but that, under pressure, they wanted the plants closed.

    That is so currently, the plants wanting to open have offered to pay the inspector's salaries but no, same reason.
    The rara's objection was...the slaughter plants will "buy them off"

    They can not win with these children ..... Darned if you do and Darned if you don't

    I think they are in for a rude awakening however. This time the breeders, registration groups USDA etc are ALL aware of the behind the scenes lobby and they are getting ready for them.

    The European scandal proves they have so much to clean up before they start pointing fingers


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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Some are forgetting that the slaughter plants offered to pay the USDA inspectors, but they were denied that also, because, well, the idea is not that the USDA didn't have money for them, as they insisted, but that, under pressure, they wanted the plants closed.

    That is so currently, the plants wanting to open have offered to pay the inspector's salaries but no, same reason.
    Link please, particularly to what I bolded
    TIA


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  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    But you are a vegetarian
    No, actually, I'm not. I was for a period of time back in the 80's when I was a long distance runner and the taste and smell of meat and poultry disgusted me. Ended up vegan for a while. But it wasn't based on any animal rights belief, it was purely based on taste and texture. Injured my knee, knocked the running back and meat didn't seem so disgusting anymore.

    It is healthier, however...of course, you need a balanced diet, just like any meat eater would.

    But nice try.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    This is where you are wrong but you are exposing your alliance with RARA groups. Vegan groups etc.

    Packaging, mislable and substitution are FRAUD.

    They have nothing to do with North American Slaughter

    Have you read recent updates. It appears oranges, apples lettuce, shrimp, etc are ALL victims of gangsers and their desire to falsify papers.

    By trying to taint ALL meat production you are entering step two. But it is your arrogance that has you thinking you have already won the anti slaughter debate.

    Far from it. Politicians understand THEY WERE HAD...big time...last time.

    Nice try however
    Gee Fairfax, that's what I was talking about...food fraud, and those were the links I posted...food fraud. You proved exactly nothing. I have this gift, I'm not obsessed with just one or two topics.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    No, actually, I'm not. I was for a period of time back in the 80's when I was a long distance runner and the taste and smell of meat and poultry disgusted me. Ended up vegan for a while. But it wasn't based on any animal rights belief, it was purely based on taste and texture. Injured my knee, knocked the running back and meat didn't seem so disgusting anymore.

    It is healthier, however...of course, you need a balanced diet, just like any meat eater would.

    But nice try.
    Actually I am Paleo, Wheat Free Primal. Never touch grain products.
    Note my siggie!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Gee Fairfax, that's what I was talking about...food fraud, and those were the links I posted...food fraud. You proved exactly nothing. I have this gift, I'm not obsessed with just one or two topics.
    I got that..however I also saw how you did not ask anyone to stay on topi i.e. food fraud...but instead engage in the anti versus pro slaughter etc.

    Guess we can quit posting as food fraud is a ticket that has nthing to do with eqines nor with slaughter nor with chemicals.

    It is strictly a thread about fraud.


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  11. #371
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    Maybe we should stop posting then...I'm all for it. Although the title is horsemeat in the beef burgers and it looks like they're still finding more and more incidences of horsemeat in the fill in the blank in Europe.

    I wonder, are they testing the beef in Canada to make sure it's really beef?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Maybe we should stop posting then...I'm all for it. Although the title is horsemeat in the beef burgers and it looks like they're still finding more and more incidences of horsemeat in the fill in the blank in Europe.

    I wonder, are they testing the beef in Canada to make sure it's really beef?
    I think we can add "possibly" contaminated horsemeat masquerading as beef.

    This, of course, has nothing to do with Canadian horsemeat shipped to Europe, except that there are enough hints here and there that meat from Canada may not really come with the proper credentials (withdrawal from drugs, falsified EIA slips, etc.) that indeed this may become the case sooner or later.

    BTW, Fairfax, when you stay 100% on task in describing your personal experiences with Fort McLeod, you are a valuable resource. However, the minute that you begin ranting and raving about RARAs, HSUS, etc., etc., you lose 100% of your credibility with me and probably everyone else.


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  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Some are forgetting that the slaughter plants offered to pay the USDA inspectors, but they were denied that also, because, well, the idea is not that the USDA didn't have money for them, as they insisted, but that, under pressure, they wanted the plants closed.

    That is so currently, the plants wanting to open have offered to pay the inspector's salaries but no, same reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    The rara's objection was...the slaughter plants will "buy them off"
    Seriously you two? A private entity paying the salary of a government worker?

    It's my understanding food inspectors aren't paid a lot to begin with, so they would be easy targets for bribes and payola.

    I'm no RARA and have never been one, but even I understand what a ridiculous idea that is.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  14. #374
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    Interesting article from FoodSafetyNews.com

    "Since there has not been any horse legally slaughtered in the U.S. for food in more than a half dozen years, it’s likely that ground beef and ground pork at your local meat market are 100 percent, unless you’ve ordered a meatloaf mix."

    http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/0.../#.UWgqjbWsiSo
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  15. #375
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    Imarily
    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Seriously you two? A private entity paying the salary of a government worker?

    It's my understanding food inspectors aren't paid a lot to begin with, so they would be easy targets for bribes and payola.

    I'm no RARA and have never been one, but even I understand what a ridiculous idea that is.
    People/companies do pay for inspections in many cases. Look up "fee for service inspection" and you'll find plenty of examples in many (most?) inspection agencies, including FSIS. (In fact, I think all of the meat inspection for exotics either is or was done on a fee-for-service basis). Someone mentioned earlier that it was vetoed for horsemeat inspection and this is true - USDA was going to add horsemeat to the "voluntary" exotics fee schedule but that was vetoed (I'm on my phone - taking a perfectly legal break from my federal inspection job that is primarily paid for by inspecting fees - so I can't link references right now but it was 9 CFR 352.19).

    While corruption can and does occur anywhere, it has not been my experience that charging fees for inspection makes any difference - good or bad - to the integrity of the inspector.


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  16. #376
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    I was under the impression that for the last couple of years the 3 slaughter houses in the U.S. paid their inspectors privately.



  17. #377
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    Thanks for the info!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRose View Post
    Imarily

    People/companies do pay for inspections in many cases. Look up "fee for service inspection" and you'll find plenty of examples in many (most?) inspection agencies, including FSIS. (In fact, I think all of the meat inspection for exotics either is or was done on a fee-for-service basis). Someone mentioned earlier that it was vetoed for horsemeat inspection and this is true - USDA was going to add horsemeat to the "voluntary" exotics fee schedule but that was vetoed (I'm on my phone - taking a perfectly legal break from my federal inspection job that is primarily paid for by inspecting fees - so I can't link references right now but it was 9 CFR 352.19).

    While corruption can and does occur anywhere, it has not been my experience that charging fees for inspection makes any difference - good or bad - to the integrity of the inspector.



  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post
    I think we can add "possibly" contaminated horsemeat masquerading as beef.

    This, of course, has nothing to do with Canadian horsemeat shipped to Europe, except that there are enough hints here and there that meat from Canada may not really come with the proper credentials (withdrawal from drugs, falsified EIA slips, etc.) that indeed this may become the case sooner or later.

    BTW, Fairfax, when you stay 100% on task in describing your personal experiences with Fort McLeod, you are a valuable resource. However, the minute that you begin ranting and raving about RARAs, HSUS, etc., etc., you lose 100% of your credibility with me and probably everyone else.
    Sadly they seem to go hand in hand.

    HSUS does influence some local hs and spca groupings however they do not have the power they exert in the U.S.

    Many posters try and imply or state that what happened in the states previous is STILL the way it is done in Canada.

    I truly believe it can be done humanely (as humanely as killing anything can be done) and I do understand there are many who hate any thought of death.

    I refuse to turn over the cats dumped at my kennel, to the local county and they gas all unwanted pets. I have seen how long it takes to kill them and the suffering. However paying out a couple of grand to have them needled is not in my budget

    We all make decisions. While I choose NOT to gas them others for any and all reasons choose to turn their excess cats over to the county

    I have no problem with that. I support the program for others even though I CHOOSE not to use it.

    Slaughter is no different. It is only ONE piece of the puzzle.

    What is troubling to me are those who bemoan the three women saving only ONE pregnant mare while attacking the commercial buyer of the rest of the horses. NEITHER should be attacked and they should be applauded.

    The commercial buyer is still SAVING a few...and hopefully they might have great lives. The women are the same (saving two actually)

    Slaughter is there however to help with the rest.

    The anti slaughter advocates immediate shut up when it was pointed out that these horses were seized from a born free philosophy letting them roam as mother nature intended and as THEY..(what ever you decide to call them) clearly stated SHOULD happen.

    HSUS and these groups actively told congress and every listening ear that the system would absorb ALL unwanted horses so there was absolutely no heed.

    But they still support no slaughter as this allows THEIR rescues to selectively seize horses where there is almost a guarantee they will be able to file for huge rescue fees.

    One of the new rescues for an established group stated approsimately $2000 per horse...and yet...the Alberta SPCA stated it would cost around $350.00 for a few months care...$10,000 for the herd.

    Herein lies the problem They are against slaughter, because they can charge volunteer time to pet ginger at a rate of $10.0) as a socialization fee. The Alberta SPCA does not do that.

    When these topics arise, it is insinuated and on this thread stated, that the horse meat probably .... probably came from Canada...then they go on a drug run...and insinuate North American horse meat is mislabled and when they are proven wrong..they go silent or change tactics.

    That is why I mention HSUS and RARA groups.

    There is a HUGE push by HSUS to get all of their "troops" out, posting and activated according to my sources within.

    Nope Angela..not going to give you their names either.


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  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRose View Post
    Imarily

    People/companies do pay for inspections in many cases. Look up "fee for service inspection" and you'll find plenty of examples in many (most?) inspection agencies, including FSIS. (In fact, I think all of the meat inspection for exotics either is or was done on a fee-for-service basis). Someone mentioned earlier that it was vetoed for horsemeat inspection and this is true - USDA was going to add horsemeat to the "voluntary" exotics fee schedule but that was vetoed (I'm on my phone - taking a perfectly legal break from my federal inspection job that is primarily paid for by inspecting fees - so I can't link references right now but it was 9 CFR 352.19).

    While corruption can and does occur anywhere, it has not been my experience that charging fees for inspection makes any difference - good or bad - to the integrity of the inspector.

    Are you sure you aren't confusing meat grading with meat inspection?

    From the USDA website:

    Inspection & Grading of Meat and Poultry: What Are the Differences?

    The inspection and grading of meat and poultry are two separate programs within the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA). Inspection for wholesomeness is mandatory and is paid for with public funds. Grading for quality is voluntary, and the service is requested and paid for by meat and poultry producers/processors.


    Fee for inspection for horses was available Ante-mortem.

    FSIS Establishes Fee-For-Service Program for Ante-Mortem Inspection of Horses

    More on 9 CFR 352.19:

    9 CFR 352.19 - Ante-mortem inspection and applicable requirements.

    § 352.19
    Ante-mortem inspection and applicable requirements.
    Notwithstanding part 309 of this subchapter, an official establishment that wishes to slaughter horses can apply for voluntary ante-mortem inspection according to § 352.3. Such establishments shall pay the applicable base time, overtime, and holiday rates for ante-mortem inspection in accordance with § 352.5. Such ante-mortem inspection shall be made in pens on the premises of the establishment at which the horses are offered for slaughter in accordance with § 309.1(b),
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Sadly they seem to go hand in hand.

    HSUS does influence some local hs and spca groupings however they do not have the power they exert in the U.S.

    Many posters try and imply or state that what happened in the states previous is STILL the way it is done in Canada.

    I truly believe it can be done humanely (as humanely as killing anything can be done) and I do understand there are many who hate any thought of death.


    I believe it would be better if it could be done locally. Also wonder why vets are not encouraged to euthanize with something other than chemicals - as they used to do.

    I refuse to turn over the cats dumped at my kennel, to the local county and they gas all unwanted pets. I have seen how long it takes to kill them and the suffering. However paying out a couple of grand to have them needled is not in my budget

    We all make decisions. While I choose NOT to gas them others for any and all reasons choose to turn their excess cats over to the county

    I have no problem with that. I support the program for others even though I CHOOSE not to use it.

    Slaughter is no different. It is only ONE piece of the puzzle.

    One of my issues with slaughter for human consumption is this: If we put horses in the food chain, IMHO we are encouraging a whole different business. As in what's happening in Spain. They end up breeding for the meat market and only end up using 4 y.o. horses as they are much more tender. Then why is that any kind of a solution for actual unusable horses?? The numbers don't seem to work for me.

    What is troubling to me are those who bemoan the three women saving only ONE pregnant mare while attacking the commercial buyer of the rest of the horses. NEITHER should be attacked and they should be applauded.

    The commercial buyer is still SAVING a few...and hopefully they might have great lives. The women are the same (saving two actually)

    Slaughter is there however to help with the rest.

    The anti slaughter advocates immediate shut up when it was pointed out that these horses were seized from a born free philosophy letting them roam as mother nature intended and as THEY..(what ever you decide to call them) clearly stated SHOULD happen.


    See now those are the people that could actually be called a RARA - they know nothing about actual animals. My horses aren't quite hot house flowers - but they aren't far off either.

    HSUS and these groups actively told congress and every listening ear that the system would absorb ALL unwanted horses so there was absolutely no heed.

    But they still support no slaughter as this allows THEIR rescues to selectively seize horses where there is almost a guarantee they will be able to file for huge rescue fees.

    One of the new rescues for an established group stated approsimately $2000 per horse...and yet...the Alberta SPCA stated it would cost around $350.00 for a few months care...$10,000 for the herd.

    Herein lies the problem They are against slaughter, because they can charge volunteer time to pet ginger at a rate of $10.0) as a socialization fee. The Alberta SPCA does not do that.

    When these topics arise, it is insinuated and on this thread stated, that the horse meat probably .... probably came from Canada...then they go on a drug run...and insinuate North American horse meat is mislabled and when they are proven wrong..they go silent or change tactics.

    That is why I mention HSUS and RARA groups.

    There is a HUGE push by HSUS to get all of their "troops" out, posting and activated according to my sources within.

    Nope Angela..not going to give you their names either.
    I would imagine that alot of horse meat does come from Canada. I do not know what the exact percentages are. Is horsemeat mislabeled?? Probably.
    The system as it is seems somewhat of a joke. Anything that comes out of the US does not seem to have proper information with it. There is too much argument about the drugs in the system of one hell of a lot of horses that come from the US. What the tests should be and how they should be done. Too many loopholes and not enough accountability.

    No matter what I'm eating, I would like to know what's in it. Everything from meat to margarine.(Ok I don't eat margarine.)

    Our food system in general is struggling - there are so many ingredients that we can no longer get in the US that come from China or elsewhere - re: the pet food recalls.
    I believe Purina is recalling some horse feeds at the moment as well.

    I also agree that there are bad rescues and good rescues.
    I donate feed now and again to the local ones but also donate my time to another local rescue.

    I also recognize that HSUS PETA et al have their own agenda. Does not mean I am going to be so fearful that I support no animal welfare whatsoever.



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