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  1. #21
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    There is no way in hell I can afford to feed my horse 40lbs of hay a day, especially Orchard, and frankly he would look like a whale.

    He needs more calories than what hay and a balancer will provide.
    The above quotes from the OP are what I am having trouble understanding.

    OP states they cannot increase hay because it would be too expensive and the horse would look like a whale...

    Then later said the TB needs more calories than with balancer and hay alone but are not willing to increase hay.????

    OP is feeding 15 lbs of a very low protein hay and 15 lbs of an even lower protein hay.

    But if a balancer was fed which you feed only a few lbs of it so it would cost less than TC or Calf Manna you are feeding now and increase a better hay (all Orchard or Timothy - remove the Bermuda) the cost would work out very similar to what is being spent now.

    I guess I am in the minority on this one but if your are not willing to spend more money to feed more Orchard or Timothy hay and looking for something less expensive to put weight on a already hot horse... then finding a supplement that wont make your horse hot and gain weight at the same time will be really difficult. The OP is not in a cold area; It's really a simple answer - feed more hay.

    Rice and wheat bran's will assist further in an off balance diet.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  2. #22
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    I wasn't aware that you could know the percentage of protein in hay without testing it. Obviously alfalfa is going to have more protein than grass hay, but timothy, orchard grass, and bermuda are all relatively interchangeable as far as average protein goes (http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/id146.pdf). You'd have to test the individual batch of hay to determine the exact percentage you're feeding.

    And many rice brans are fortified to correct the Ca/P ratio.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    I wasn't aware that you could know the percentage of protein in hay without testing it. Obviously alfalfa is going to have more protein than grass hay, but timothy, orchard grass, and bermuda are all relatively interchangeable as far as average protein goes (http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/id146.pdf). You'd have to test the individual batch of hay to determine the exact percentage you're feeding.

    And many rice brans are fortified to correct the Ca/P ratio.
    In the table 1 chart in your link it clearly shows Bermuda having the least of protein, calcium and phosphorus comparably to all other hays.. Orchard and Timothy somewhere in the middle and Alfalfa being highest as an example. The OP is feeding 15 lbs of Bermuda a day.

    You can have your hay tested to get exact, however even in the link it gives a base guideline. Also the bold portion of the quote above is also assuming without testing hay.

    Bran - if you research and what vets have told me it is not a good product to feed.

    From KER site : "A potential problem with many rice brans is that they
    contain more phosphorus than calcium


    http://www.ker.com/library/equinews/v2n1/v2n115.pdf

    You could probably feed rice bran somewhat safely but IMO why would you want to risk it when you can accomplish the same thing by feeding more hay and a balancer that has what you need.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  4. #24
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    The link shows that timothy, orchard grass, and bermuda have the exact same digestible energy, and that timothy and orchard grass typically contain between 7-11% protein while bermuda grass typically has between 6-11%. It's a negligible difference. Again, you can't make assumptions about the protein content of hay without testing it.

    Unfortified rice bran does have inverse Ca:P ratio, but fortified rice bran has Ca added to balance it.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    The link shows that timothy, orchard grass, and bermuda have the exact same digestible energy, and that timothy and orchard grass typically contain between 7-11% protein while bermuda grass typically has between 6-11%. It's a negligible difference. Again, you can't make assumptions about the protein content of hay without testing it.

    Unfortified rice bran does have inverse Ca:P ratio, but fortified rice bran has Ca added to balance it.
    You "can" make assumptions about the protein content without testing it - you are by saying the following:

    timothy and orchard grass typically contain between 7-11% protein while bermuda grass typically has between 6-11%.

    I will listen to my vets and the professionals I have studied with.

    I guess we all get set in what we like and what we don't. Never been a fan of brans, beet pulp, TC and a few other feeds.....
    Last edited by doublesstable; Jan. 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    You "can" make assumptions about the protein content without testing it - you are by saying the following:

    timothy and orchard grass typically contain between 7-11% protein while bermuda grass typically has between 6-11%.
    Yes...I don't see the big difference? They're averages anyway. What if her orchard grass is 7% and her bermuda is 9%? Besides, when the horse is eating 25-30# of hay + concentrates...be it a balancer or high calorie "grain", the horse is not going to be lacking in protein.

    Again, I don't disagree with you. Hay + balancer is a great thing. But there are times when you simply cannot provide all the calories a horse needs with these two things alone. Horses can eat a lot of hay, but once you get to 25-30 pounds + a day...the horse would literally have to be eating 24/7 to consume that much hay. For an average 1100# horse, 2% (upper limit of necessary forage per day) of his body weight in hay is 22#. When you get to 30-40#, you're talking 3-3.5% of his body weight. Per day. That's a huge amount of hay.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    Yes...I don't see the big difference? They're averages anyway. What if her orchard grass is 7% and her bermuda is 9%? Besides, when the horse is eating 25-30# of hay + concentrates...be it a balancer or high calorie "grain", the horse is not going to be lacking in protein.

    Again, I don't disagree with you. Hay + balancer is a great thing. But there are times when you simply cannot provide all the calories a horse needs with these two things alone. Horses can eat a lot of hay, but once you get to 25-30 pounds + a day...the horse would literally have to be eating 24/7 to consume that much hay. For an average 1100# horse, 2% (upper limit of necessary forage per day) of his body weight in hay is 22#. When you get to 30-40#, you're talking 3-3.5% of his body weight. Per day. That's a huge amount of hay.
    Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that feeding 40lbs of hay a day is A LOT. And it IS more expensive, especially because I would have to add on another feeding to my board, which would make it even MORE expensive.

    My vet recommends fortified rice bran as a fat supplement for most horses. Hers are on RB + Beep + Vitamins, but they are super easy keepers.

    Going to let the Calf Manna run out and see what happens. Will report back later.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by runNjump86 View Post
    Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that feeding 40lbs of hay a day is A LOT. And it IS more expensive, especially because I would have to add on another feeding to my board, which would make it even MORE expensive.

    My vet recommends fortified rice bran as a fat supplement for most horses. Hers are on RB + Beep + Vitamins, but they are super easy keepers.

    Going to let the Calf Manna run out and see what happens. Will report back later.
    I don't think it's a lot - horses are grazers.. but that's just me. I think you should do what your vet recommends.

    Since you are boarding - are you sure they are feeding what they say? I have been at a few board places and they were to be feeding something and when I was there and looked it wasn't what I was paying for... it was less feed.

    About the lacking protein - I know those hays fed with grains will not be lacking but feeding a lot of those grains can make the horse hot... but it sounds like the OP has a plan working with her vet which IMO is the best plan.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    I don't think it's a lot - horses are grazers.. but that's just me. I think you should do what your vet recommends.

    Since you are boarding - are you sure they are feeding what they say? I have been at a few board places and they were to be feeding something and when I was there and looked it wasn't what I was paying for... it was less feed.

    About the lacking protein - I know those hays fed with grains will not be lacking but feeding a lot of those grains can make the horse hot... but it sounds like the OP has a plan working with her vet which IMO is the best plan.
    I'm guessing you must be in an area with unlimited resources of top quality, cheap hay. Most of us are not and we make do with what we have.

    Are you honestly saying that you think feeding 4% of body weight is OK and normal?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'm guessing you must be in an area with unlimited resources of top quality, cheap hay. Most of us are not and we make do with what we have.

    Are you honestly saying that you think feeding 4% of body weight is OK and normal?
    I have horses at home so I buy what I need.. and your guess is wrong LOL - our Alfalfa is $20 a 80 - 100 lb bale Orchard and Timothy are 25.00 a 80 - 100 bale. I feed what my horses need. I like them to have grass hay 24/7.

    For example - If a horse that is skinny and weighs 1000 lbs and "should" weigh 1500 lbs you feed more than the percentage based on 1000. Percentages are a guideline IMO - your horse is the true indicator of what is needed.

    I have a few 1500 lb horses and they eat 30 lbs a day. So IMO it depends on the horse and you must figure in your goal weight for your horse as well as it's work load.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by runNjump86 View Post
    ... He gets turned out 2x a week, more if I can squeeze it in, and getting worked 4-5x a week. So the weather could definitely be a factor as well...
    So, he gets pretty minimal turnout, and isn't ridden daily?

    He used to be underweight but you've been able to get him to gain wtih groceries?

    With that amount of limited turnout, I would expect any horse to be more hot. Consider increasing his turnout, you may find that you have a much calmer horse.

    Additionally, I agree with others who have said if he was underweight prior, putting some groceries into them will certainly give him energy he didn't have before.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  12. #32
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    RE: Feeding a horse 40 lbs of hay a day...

    Our square bales are about 40 lbs.

    I have two average size horses, no "grain" to either of them (ration balancer TC 30% and 1 cup of flax daily, in addition my mare gets alfalfa cubes soaked)

    I feed two whole bales daily with no wasted hay leftover at the next meal.

    So, on average, each horse is eating about 40 lbs of hay daily.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    I have horses at home so I buy what I need.. and your guess is wrong LOL - our Alfalfa is $20 a 80 - 100 lb bale Orchard and Timothy are 25.00 a 80 - 100 bale. I feed what my horses need. I like them to have grass hay 24/7.

    For example - If a horse that is skinny and weighs 1000 lbs and "should" weigh 1500 lbs you feed more than the percentage based on 1000. Percentages are a guideline IMO - your horse is the true indicator of what is needed.

    I have a few 1500 lb horses and they eat 30 lbs a day. So IMO it depends on the horse and you must figure in your goal weight for your horse as well as it's work load.
    What breeds are your horses? 1500 lbs is a LOT of horse, LOL. They must be huge.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  14. #34
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    I've been having such good luck with Blue Seal Hay Stretcher, including several remarkable turnarounds of notoriously lifetime hard-keepers, that I no longer believe "added fat" is the solution at all. Certainly that much fat is not natural in the equine diet.

    The problem is to make the forage palatable and digestible enough that they'll eat enough of it--and this stuff seems to work without hotness, and if anything enhancing their appetite for hay; unlike the oily beet pulp Senior feeds where I've found that the more of it you feed, the more you need to. Far more affordable as well.



  15. #35
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    I have had good luck with Hard Keeper and an increase in hay rather than grain on most of the foster horses that have come here. I also use b1 on my riding horse, and am a huge believer in soaked beet pulp.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublesstable View Post
    I don't think it's a lot - horses are grazers.. but that's just me. I think you should do what your vet recommends.

    Since you are boarding - are you sure they are feeding what they say? I have been at a few board places and they were to be feeding something and when I was there and looked it wasn't what I was paying for... it was less feed.

    About the lacking protein - I know those hays fed with grains will not be lacking but feeding a lot of those grains can make the horse hot... but it sounds like the OP has a plan working with her vet which IMO is the best plan.
    My vet thinks he looks great and we should keep on doing what we're doing.

    And yes, he gets exactly what I said he gets. I work there. I am there for evening feedings about 5 days a week, and 2 of those nights I feed. There is one other person who feeds. She has a tendency to overfeed, so its quite possible he's getting more hay.



  17. #37
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    RE: Feeding a horse 40 lbs of hay a day...

    Our square bales are about 40 lbs.

    I have two average size horses, no "grain" to either of them (ration balancer TC 30% and 1 cup of flax daily, in addition my mare gets alfalfa cubes soaked)

    I feed two whole bales daily with no wasted hay leftover at the next meal.

    So, on average, each horse is eating about 40 lbs of hay daily.
    Pretty much the same here. It varies but on average the horses here eat a bale (about 40 lbs) a day when not on grass.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    What breeds are your horses? 1500 lbs is a LOT of horse, LOL. They must be huge.
    One is a Hanovarian and the other is Danish... yeah they are big guys.

    I agree with tradewind on having good luck just increasing hay.
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!



  19. #39

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    Just my opinion, but I think people greatly underestimate how much their horses weigh- my 15h Qh mare weighed in at 1200# when she went to Tufts to have her eye removed (on an actual scale). And this was when she was lean and fit and she is NOT a typical beefy QH- most people think she's an Appendix or full TB.

    That said, my big geldings each eat pretty close to 40# of hay per day in the winter- one 16h Morab and one 17h OTTB and hold their weight pretty well. I think more hay less concentrates would be better and ultimately cheaper based on what I'm paying for TC here.



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