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  1. #61
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    Rallycairn - I was trying to distinguish my text from the other poster's text, since I was responding to her points.

    The reason I stopped fostering dogs is because there were too many escape artists and livestock chasers. It was unfair to my neighbors to have such dogs on my property, and it was not fair to my livestock as well. Livestock chasers are a terrible liability in a rural area.

    I've seen these conversations repeatedly on this BB, for years. Everyone screams bloody murder when their precious horses are harassed by someone's loose pet - but few to none of you give the same consideration to other livestock owners when their animals are victimized. I can even remember the news stories about mini's being torn apart by pit bulls - and the screeching on this BB about how the dogs should be shot - you'd shoot a dog killing your horses, etc. Dozens upon dozens of these threads over the years. Countless.

    Consider the fact that owners of other species of livestock FEEL THE SAME WAY - and yes, that time I was yelling. No one wants to go out to a pasture and find blood smears and entrails where their animals were last seen grazing. Trespassing dogs that tear into enclosures, jump or dig under fences to get at livestock - are wrong. The livestock owner has a duty to keep his livestock in an enclosure as required by state law. The pet owner has the same duty to his pets. The livestock owner is not at fault when the pet owner screws up.

    Again - it seems this livestock owner had a history of problems with this dog. He was justified in killing it the first time it harassed his livestock. He didn't. The dog's owner was warned.

    The problem is now solved.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    6 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Nov. 25, 2005
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    I didn't really think that the article was liberally slanted- but the news story definitely was. I think it was channel 5, so abc. The story on the news made it sound like poor neighbors let their dog out, and trigger-happy ex-cop shot it without remorse.

    Since the dog was a repeat offender (which was NOT on the news but in the article in the OP) I think the rabbit owner was within his rights to shoot it. Not really sure how this guy deals with other wildlife that tries to get into his hutch. If you raise rabbits for meat, essentially as livestock, seems like you should have a sturdy place to keep them outside. If they are pets- then I think they should be kept inside. Same with cats.

    FWIW, I have no climb fence around my horses paddock, but there are two spots, near the gates, where a dog could possibly get in. If I saw a dog CHASING my horses in the paddock I would shoot it. If I saw a dog nosing around the fence outside of the paddock trying to get it, I would go outside and scare the damn thing off.



  3. #63
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    Feb. 28, 2006
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    Yes, rabbits can die of fright and they can also hurl themselves into the cage walls and break their own necks trying to get away. Two different things, two different ways to go. The dogs don't even have to be close, the rabbits just have to be sufficiently afraid.

    We had two pets in the backyard and the neighbor's dogs tore through the wire and mangled one, the other hid under my DH's piles of junk, (vindication for him). The dogs were still in the backyard when we all came home and it wasn't till feeding time that we realized they'd torn the bottom of the hutch right out in the back corner. The neighbor was quite apologetic and compensated us for the value of the rabbit and the cost of new wire for the cage.

    When we bought stock here the breeder had a pretty secure chain link enclosure for his outdoor cages, probably cost him a fair chunk of change, he said that he'd had significant losses from dogs especially on one occasion and finally went into fortification mode.

    When we set up here we fenced up the area with cattle panels and we still had a fright loss one time, somebody's loose dog probably jumping on the cattle panels and the rabbit in the closest cage was dead. We caught the dog running around the building, whining and looking, I think that one went off to AC pronto. That's generally what we do, although when the neighbors were letting their new agressive GSD out and our chickens were vanishing DH spent a couple of afternoons sitting with a high powered pellet rifle plinking the dogs when they got to the property line. Those neighbors got to buy a calf the dogs killed later that year a few miles down the road and now the dogs go out singly, keeps them closer to home.

    My opinion about this incident is that it never would have happened with a responsible dog owner, but not all owners are responsible and as a livestock owner it is best to plan ahead based on that possibility if it's at all affordable. Doesn't always work that way though.
    Maybe the rabbit owner is an A-hole, the dog was still over there, the rabbit owner is not the burdened party, and I feel sorry for the dog.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Mar. 7, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    The dog's owner was warned.
    excerpted from the conservative-viewed New Hampshire Union Leader:
    Dog shot and law says it's OK

    Fred Galietta said Sadie never caused a problem for the neighbors and that this was the first time that she ever went over to the rabbit cage.

    "There has never been a complaint, either to me or to my wife or to local authorities," he said. "We would let her out, she would do her business and come in."

    The Galiettas, who have owned Sadie since she was two months old, described her as a friendly and affectionate dog.
    As I have stated before, the moral of this story is without a doubt do not let your dogs roam loose. But just because you can shoot an animal, doesn't mean you should.

    In my endeavors to introduce my own dogs to upland game birds, I have developed the utmost respect for those who know not only when to use their guns but also when a gun is NOT necessary. Some of you have made the assumption that I am anti-gun. To you I say you have met the enemy in the gun-control fight, and it is not me. It is those use deadly force when not necessary, and those who jump to the defense of it.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnfairy View Post
    excerpted from the conservative-viewed New Hampshire Union Leader: As I have stated before, the moral of this story is without a doubt do not let your dogs roam loose. But just because you can shoot an animal, doesn't mean you should.

    In my endeavors to introduce my own dogs to upland game birds, I have developed the utmost respect for those who know not only when to use their guns but also when a gun is NOT necessary. Some of you have made the assumption that I am anti-gun. To you I say you have met the enemy in the gun-control fight, and it is not me. It is those use deadly force when not necessary, and those who jump to the defense of it.

    Even if the dog owners had not been warned (which of course, in today's society, unless a lawyer delivers a certified letter, it never happened) it still does not put the rabbit owner in the wrong.
    As in 'when not to use the gun'

    A lifestock owner does not have to endure multiple incidents of harassment.

    And the dog owner is still a lazy slob....yeah, I have done the 'letting them out to do their business' in lieu of walks...because I was lazy.

    I had a 400 dollar vet bill because a friendly neighbor let the dog roam 'to do her business' and I am not 100% sure I was not close to losing that cat in the process!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiningwizard255 View Post
    Rabbits can DIE just from being scared. Nobody is exaggerating or kidding when they say that. It doesn't matter the dog didn't actually touch the rabbits - stress can absolutely kill a bunny.
    The danger was real to the BUNNY in the situation. Just because you love dogs more than bunnies, doesn't make this guy in the wrong.
    WTH are you talking about? I think one neighbor's a nitwit with an itchy trigger finger and suddenly I'm a rabbit hater? Seriously? If you read my earlier post you'll see I mentioned that rabbits are delicate and I lost a rabbit to a a similar scenario - not a mark on it, hutch unopened, but the rabbit mortally injured from freaking out at what we presume was a wild predator prowling around. My opinion isn't based on some malevolent feeling that rabbits belong in stews, but on past experiences with jerk neighbors. The ones who reach for guns are worse than the ones whose small, light-weight dogs run loose.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiningwizard255 View Post
    It also said in one of the articles on this case that the ex-cop didn't recognize the dog til after he'd shot it. Adrenaline can make you blind to things and this is absolutely plausible. Honestly, just cause he owns a gun and has had issues with these neighbors in the past doesn't make him a dog-hating, revenge-seeking lunatic
    I'm not a gun person, but are you really supposed to fire one when you're "blind with adrenaline"? Unless, you know, you're a Navy SEAL on a mission. I have an image of this guy, blind with adrenaline, leaning out a second story window as dawn breaks, sighting on - well, something vaguely doggish near his rabbit hutches.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Oh look. Another COTH thread about dogs killing someone's livestock.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...chickens-today
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    If we catch a dog actively trying to kill our livestock/possessions, we would shoot it.. pretty straight forward procedure. Don't be a dummass, people that have livestock, even small livestock, are used to protecting them against whatever.

    Shoot stray dogs, be done with it.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Oh look. Another COTH thread about dogs killing someone's livestock.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...chickens-today
    Since I linked this thread over there...does that mean COTH is about to implode?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    May. 17, 2001
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    New Hampshire/Florida
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  11. #71
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    Nov. 13, 2005
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    Clarksville, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    \ (with a semi-automatic, really?).
    Do you actually know what a semi-automatic weapon is?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Mar. 27, 2008
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    Maryland
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    You know, I love dogs, but this just pisses my off. Protesters?! Where is the responsibility of the owner to keep his dog off other's property?
    You are what you dare.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    May. 17, 2001
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    New Hampshire/Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotGait View Post
    You know, I love dogs, but this just pisses my off. Protesters?! Where is the responsibility of the owner to keep his dog off other's property?
    I feel EXACTLY the same way.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Jun. 18, 2007
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    "She saw the rabbits and wanted to play with them." (from the above-linked story).

    Oh, yeah, THAT makes all the difference. The rabbits should have acknowledged her friendly gestures, realized that she only wanted to play, and not been in danger of being frightened to death at all. Why should anybody object to Sadie "playing" with their livestock? Obviously, the entire community and the animals of the entire community should have welcomed her "games" with open arms. And I guess her people think there should be no responsibility to keep your dog on your property when it's a "lovable" dog.

    Total jerks. The dog owners, I mean. 100% their responsibility and their fault. I do feel sorry the dog had to pay for their errors.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    "She saw the rabbits and wanted to play with them." (from the above-linked story).

    Oh, yeah, THAT makes all the difference. The rabbits should have acknowledged her friendly gestures, realized that she only wanted to play, and not been in danger of being frightened to death at all. Why should anybody object to Sadie "playing" with their livestock? Obviously, the entire community and the animals of the entire community should have welcomed her "games" with open arms. And I guess her people think there should be no responsibility to keep your dog on your property when it's a "lovable" dog.

    Total jerks. The dog owners, I mean. 100% their responsibility and their fault. I do feel sorry the dog had to pay for their errors.
    That makes me think of this:
    "When you make it idiot proof, they make a better idiot."

    "You can't fix stupid" and the dog had to pay for it and worse, they will do the same again with their next dog.

    "A free dog is free to get in trouble and get killed", in many possible ways.
    What kind of freedom is that?



  16. #76
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    "She saw the rabbits and wanted to play with them." (from the above-linked story).
    You can't fix stupid. I'm all for sensible gun regulations, backgrounds checks, licensing, the whole nine yards, but you had better bet your three letter word that if I saw a dog attacking my animals, I would shoot them. No question about it.

    If at all possible I would go the A/C route, and I have. Oddly enough the owner of the dogs asked me why didn't I just shoot them. She had a very large fine to pay.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    People are anthropomorphisizing animals to such extremes these days. Yes, let's protest over the poor doggie woggie and the mean bunnies who wouldn't play and who sicced that nasty old cop on her.
    So now they want to change the law so there has to be a victim before anyone can shoot a loose dog on their land. "Oh, now that he's killed your foal, you can shoot now." I don't know when this started happening, but dogs are being put on too high of a pedestal lately. They're being treated like people, and in some cases, better than people - and ALWAYS better than chicken, bunnies, horses, cats, etc...
    I love my dog and would be devastated if he hurt someone else's pet. I would be upset if someone shot him, but I would understand why and wouldn't get the media and the "dog lobby" involved. I love him so I keep him safe and secured.

    ETA: There's a case right now in San Fransico where a dog chased a police horse for 2 miles and bit it ten times. Some people blame the horse for running away, and claim the dog was just scared of it. WTF?!
    You are what you dare.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotGait View Post
    People are anthropomorphisizing animals to such extremes these days. Yes, let's protest over the poor doggie woggie and the mean bunnies who wouldn't play and who sicced that nasty old cop on her.
    So now they want to change the law so there has to be a victim before anyone can shoot a loose dog on their land. "Oh, now that he's killed your foal, you can shoot now." I don't know when this started happening, but dogs are being put on too high of a pedestal lately. They're being treated like people, and in some cases, better than people - and ALWAYS better than chicken, bunnies, horses, cats, etc...
    I love my dog and would be devastated if he hurt someone else's pet. I would be upset if someone shot him, but I would understand why and wouldn't get the media and the "dog lobby" involved. I love him so I keep him safe and secured.

    ETA: There's a case right now in San Fransico where a dog chased a police horse for 2 miles and bit it ten times. Some people blame the horse for running away, and claim the dog was just scared of it. WTF?!
    Good point, and I agree.

    I own a dog (ironically also named Sadie) and would feel terrible if she got out and did something like the dog in this story did. I'd also be terribly mad at MYSELF for letting my dog suffer such a fate. I just don't see why people are tarring and feathering the cop...regardless of your stance on guns, feelings on the ex-cop's history with the neighbors, your love of dogs, etc., he was simply a person within his legal limit to protect his livestock from a dog with the intent to get into that hutch.

    No matter how you slice it or dice it when you get right down to it the dog owner failed the dog and is responsible for her death.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    WTH are you talking about? I think one neighbor's a nitwit with an itchy trigger finger and suddenly I'm a rabbit hater? Seriously? If you read my earlier post you'll see I mentioned that rabbits are delicate and I lost a rabbit to a a similar scenario - not a mark on it, hutch unopened, but the rabbit mortally injured from freaking out at what we presume was a wild predator prowling around. My opinion isn't based on some malevolent feeling that rabbits belong in stews, but on past experiences with jerk neighbors. The ones who reach for guns are worse than the ones whose small, light-weight dogs run loose.



    I'm not a gun person, but are you really supposed to fire one when you're "blind with adrenaline"? Unless, you know, you're a Navy SEAL on a mission. I have an image of this guy, blind with adrenaline, leaning out a second story window as dawn breaks, sighting on - well, something vaguely doggish near his rabbit hutches.
    Take it easy.

    To be honest I don't think what happened in this story is far-fetched at all. I know if I looked out the window and saw a dog going for one of my animals, and I had a gun handy, and I had to run down steps to get to my animals and may not make it to them in time, I'd have shot the dog first to protect my animals and asked questions later.

    None of us were there and don't know how serious this dog was about gaining entry to the rabbit cage, or how close it was to actually doing so. I'd have to think to shoot the dog it looked pretty bad from his point of view. What was he supposed to do, wait until she had actually broken into the hutch and was killing his rabbits? That's fine and dandy for the dog owner, who is the one that failed the dog, but not for the ex-cop.

    Sorry, but these dog owners don't get a pass from me and I can see how this story could happen without thinking the ex-cop had an axe to grind and/or an itchy trigger finger. It's very unfortunate for the dog, though.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    Seriously? Where are these animal loving protesters when a loose dog injures or kills somebodys livestock, and or pet. I have seem some awful stories and pictures of horses, particularly minis, that are ripped to shreds by dogs. No symapthy for them from these animal lovers I guess. I have minis, and while they are livestock, they are also pets that I love dearly. I would not hesitate to kill a dog that was threatening to harm them. Or any of my "livestock". This protest ticks me off too!


    2 members found this post helpful.

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