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  1. #1
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    Default Two 2 y/o NCHA Futurity fillies at same sale

    Here are two links to two 2 y/o fillies sold 12/11/12 at the NCHA futurity sale. Both are nice but watch the difference in how these two fillies are handled and worked. Watch the fillies' expressions and how they watch the cow.

    This first filly, lot 2025, brought $6,000.00.

    http://youtu.be/6TA_Jxcepp0

    This second filly, lot 2031, bought $70,000.00.

    http://youtu.be/2nRendgFyDo


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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtph View Post
    Here are two links to two 2 y/o fillies sold 12/11/12 at the NCHA futurity sale. Both are nice but watch the difference in how these two fillies are handled and worked. Watch the fillies' expressions and how they watch the cow.

    This first filly, lot 2025, brought $6,000.00.

    http://youtu.be/6TA_Jxcepp0

    This second filly, lot 2031, bought $70,000.00.

    http://youtu.be/2nRendgFyDo
    Pretty cool to watch both, but someone sure got a nice filly for $6000!



  3. #3
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    The $6000 filly looks like she would be a better reined cow horse prospect with her higher head set.


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  4. #4
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    How are they physically different from other horses...that they are able to do this much work, stressing joints, etc. at the age of 2. I assume almost 3 but still....I couldn't help cringing.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    How are they physically different from other horses...that they are able to do this much work, stressing joints, etc. at the age of 2. I assume almost 3 but still....I couldn't help cringing.
    Studies show that, like with all sports, human athletes also, those that start very early are better at it and tend to stay sounder and last into older age healthier than those that don't start training until later.

    Those well trained athlete horse go on to long careers later.

    I have two such, older teens now, as does most anyone out there.
    I came over from Europe, where we would never start a horse before three and most were four.
    Guess what, once here I quickly learned how much better those started as two were to train, how much easier it was for them to do what we ask from them and their work ethic was so good and that they tended to stay more sound into old age.

    I think that, when you see any injuries, don't assume it is from being started early only, but it is bad training, careless raising or maybe even not training until later and then bad training also, not considering the less physical fitness of the older horse for the task at hand, compared with one that has been training longer.
    Look around and you will see how many of today's competing horses are those started properly when very young and now older.


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  6. #6
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    Thanks for the two videos, which do show the difference in quality on the fillies Both nice, but price difference in selling, made the WHY part easy to spot. Helped me point out "catty" in how horses move, to daughter who hadn't seen a horse like that before.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodhors View Post
    Thanks for the two videos, which do show the difference in quality on the fillies Both nice, but price difference in selling, made the WHY part easy to spot. Helped me point out "catty" in how horses move, to daughter who hadn't seen a horse like that before.
    One filly has tremendous talent, that trips her here and there, she is green.
    The other filly rarely really sees the cattle, is being guided all along, looks smoother, but when the chips are down, the rider can't possibly keep helping her stay with her cow, that has to be there, as in the high priced one.

    You can tell that generally after the first times you ride your colt when you start it and is obvious once you show them cattle.

    Now someone mentioned working cowhorse.
    Well, there you can cut helping your horse, two handed, so yes, you can make do with the second filly, once well trained for that, but I am not sure she is good enough for the dry work either, even if in working cowhorse you are not scored as tightly as in pure reining.

    I think that those that buy for competition at the top in any discipline like to see more talent up front to pay the higher prices.

    Now, there are many levels to compete in, so you can get by with the lesser talented horses there, if everything else comes well together, like training and management and entering in the right classes, with the proper rider.


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  8. #8
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    When working cows the first filly seemed a little distracted by something, maybe the bit. She might looked better if they just slowed down, calmed down, and let her watch the cow.

    The second filly was aware of the bit, but not afraid or distracted at all by it. Her rider barely touched her mouth. He just LET her go and watch that cow and work it, and only touched her mouth when it was necessary. I LOVE THIS. She will be in the 2013 NCHA Futurity next December as a 3 y/o. My money is on her making the finals, and I bet she'll finish in the top five or ten. Will be very interesting to watch her progress; Dual Smart Kitty.



  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Bluey;6737936]One filly has tremendous talent, that trips her here and there, she is green.
    The other filly rarely really sees the cattle, is being guided all along, looks smoother, but when the chips are down, the rider can't possibly keep helping her stay with her cow, that has to be there, as in the high priced one.

    You can tell that generally after the first times you ride your colt when you start it and is obvious once you show them cattle. Quote]

    Yep, it definately showed natural talent, cow, WANT TO WORK attitude, in the comparing of the two fillies working. They both look like nice animals, but one is just better at this kind of work, will have an easier time going further into training, with her ability to perform well as a cutter. Hard to beat natural skills, even if she isn't a polished, finished horse that she will be eventually.

    The first filly looked like she was very obedient, but kept "in hand", directed almost every step of the ridden work. Work of cutting wasn't (at this point) her best, natural skill. Just lacked the better athletic motion, self-directed drive after cattle, catty movement of the other filly. Still not a "poor" kind of horse!

    Some are just better athletes than others, it happens! You want to see an animal directed at a competition that lets it use those abilities best.


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  10. #10
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    The first filly is real cowy. Maybe the second filly has more natural talent, but we don't know. It could be that these two have just been handled differently. The second filly is almost like her mouth has never been touched.



  11. #11
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    I tend to get right to the point, so....

    Just to clarify, I'm no expert on this but I do LOVE to watch a cutting horse. Their instincts and abilities just amaze me. They both looked talented to me. ;-)


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  12. #12
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    The second filly is practically jumping the rider out of the tack, she has so much raw talent, that needs to be channeled a bit better, she is green and it shows.
    Then, you don't want to stifle that, or scare her of herself.

    The first filly never really has a good chance to show much, but also she is not offering much, if what you are looking for is a cutting horse.
    You never know, she may come on later and be a world beater, but as of what she was showing there, there was not much cow in her to see.


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  13. #13
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    I see a huge difference in the way the 70K filly wants to, and is trying to, control the cow. The 6K filly is just sort of reacting to the cow moving, and getting into a position she has probably been trained to take.

    My guess is that, besides a difference in chutzpah in the two, is that the 6K filly has been trained and worked on a flag, a lot. Flag goes, horse goes. The horse learns to take a position on the flag, then move when the flag does. The horse worked on cattle learns to try to control the cow- and learns to watch/read the cow carefully, and can often learn the chutzpah to boss/dominate the cow. Border collies do this with sheep (and with cows, if they have the bite to). Cheaper filly is reacting and taking a position, expensive filly is reading and shaping what happens- and knows it.

    I've been on a flag-trained horse. I don't like it- the cows KNOW when a horse is trying to control them, and when the horse is just taking a position. It is a LOT easier for me to control a cow on my OTTB because (well, when!) he wants to boss that cow. He doesn't have the catty cutting/show horse moves, but he can turn over his hocks and get where he needs to be fast enough. And if the cow knows she's being 'spanked', she will quit trying the horse and go where you are asking her to sooner. If you are just blocking her positionally (on a flag trained horse that doesn't care), she will continue to read the horse's 'I don't really care where you go' attitude, and try the horse more.

    I also agree with the 'make do' comment. It is entirely possible that the cheaper filly could learn to read and boss the cow- but you aren't going to do much, even if you CAN help the horse, in working cowhorse without that ability.

    I'd bet that the cheap filly, if she had lots of real cow work- where she understood that she had WON, and done something good, when she bossed the cow, could develop into a better horse. But probably not a horse of the caliber of the second one- that horse has some sha-ZAM!

    Also interesting to see the breeding. I bred my husband's 'just a horse' AQHA mare to a Dual Pep son 15 years ago. I got more 'cowhorse' than I was expecting, and looking back in mama's pedigree, husband's 'just a horse' traces tail female back to grand-dam "Kitty Buck".


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    The second filly is practically jumping the rider out of the tack, she has so much raw talent, that needs to be channeled a bit better, she is green and it shows.
    Then, you don't want to stifle that, or scare her of herself.
    EGGactly!!!! OMG she is AWESOME! And she looks like she probably hasn't been ridden much at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    The first filly never really has a good chance to show much, but also she is not offering much, if what you are looking for is a cutting horse.
    You never know, she may come on later and be a world beater, but as of what she was showing there, there was not much cow in her to see.
    I agree. The first filly is doing well with her reining, but at what cost?????
    The second filly makes my heart skip a beat every time I watch it.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillabeana View Post
    I'd bet that the cheap filly, if she had lots of real cow work- where she understood that she had WON, and done something good, when she bossed the cow, could develop into a better horse. But probably not a horse of the caliber of the second one- that horse has some sha-ZAM!
    I agree. The first filly is reining well for a 2 y/o. She's had to have had a good bit of riding to be reining like that. The second filly is AMAZING to me. I bet she hasn't had much riding at all; she seems a natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fillabeana View Post
    Also interesting to see the breeding. I bred my husband's 'just a horse' AQHA mare to a Dual Pep son 15 years ago. I got more 'cowhorse' than I was expecting, and looking back in mama's pedigree, husband's 'just a horse' traces tail female back to grand-dam "Kitty Buck".
    OMG! Had yourself a cowhorse and didn't know it!



  16. #16
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    The first horse lets the cow push her. Kiss of death. She retreats often. She's slow. Both in turning and staying with the cow. She's somewhat high-hocked so it will be difficult for her to get down and dirty. She doesn't have a lot of "cow." She will need help, always.

    $6K is about what I'd pay, if I was interested in a filly that lets a cow push back and I had to ride this hard at a young age. I personally wouldn't consider a horse, even a young one, that allows a cow to push. Reining? Maybe, but doubtful. I'm not seeing any super stop on this filly, either.

    The second filly sent goose bumps up my spine. If I had a big enough checkbook, I'd have easily paid $70K for her. Conformation great, quick, a "pistol," eager, eager, eager. Look at her ears - watching the cow and listening to the rider at the same time. She's almost twitchy.

    The way she turns over her hocks is amazing. And, excellent body control on a young horse. Watch her sweep and stop dead eyed with the cow straight on. That's tough and rare, even on a seasoned horse. Those sort of moves win futurities.

    Filly number two is definately a futurity contender. I'm sure the person who bought her knows it, too. I'd love to see where she is a year from now. If her pedigree matches up, and she performs well, she'll also be a valuable addition to anybody's broodmare band.
    Fan of the Swedish Chef


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  17. #17
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    Second filly reminds me of Sandy Bonelli's Shakin Flo back in the late 90's- you get an expression like a border collie, wanting to control that cow. And HANG ON!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAnir...ature=youtu.be

    Shakin Flo is a lot smoother and better trained than the above filly two, but that's of course after a LOT more training. I see the same base desire and electricity.

    When you have a horse with that much sha-zam, though, you have a hard time sorting cattle on them, because they will never let ANY cattle past. My DualPep bred mares, you can't really sort in a corral if you have to let cattle come past you (walking past facing you, not just walking through a herd looking for your cow to cut), because they won't allow a cow facing them to come past. Well, they might allow a cow to go past but the cow will not be calm, they will be rushed and nervous because the horse won't take mental pressure off them.
    My OTTB and my Appendix (OTTB mare, Mr. Gunsmoke bred stallion) will both boss the cow you want them to, but allow the ones you don't want to quietly walk past.
    I absolutely admire that sha-zam! I think it's amazing and inspiring to watch, just noting that it can be too much if you're trying to do ranch work.


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  18. #18
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    That first filly doesn't hunt a cow at all. She has a good level of brokeness, but I don't see her having "it" as a top cutting or cowhorse prospect. The second filly hunts that cow and automaticallly drops. That's a great example of a catty horse! I'd love to see what she can do as a finished 3/4 year old.


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  19. #19
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    She'll be in the 2013 NCHA Futurity next December. Remember her name; Dual Smart Kitty

    Fillabeana; Well let's give her a few years; she might make a fine working cow horse. I think all we've seen here is raw, natural talent from a two year old. I bet she's going to grow up and settle down.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    The first horse lets the cow push her. Kiss of death. She retreats often. She's slow. Both in turning and staying with the cow. She's somewhat high-hocked so it will be difficult for her to get down and dirty. She doesn't have a lot of "cow." She will need help, always.

    $6K is about what I'd pay, if I was interested in a filly that lets a cow push back and I had to ride this hard at a young age. I personally wouldn't consider a horse, even a young one, that allows a cow to push. Reining? Maybe, but doubtful. I'm not seeing any super stop on this filly, either.

    The second filly sent goose bumps up my spine. If I had a big enough checkbook, I'd have easily paid $70K for her. Conformation great, quick, a "pistol," eager, eager, eager. Look at her ears - watching the cow and listening to the rider at the same time. She's almost twitchy.

    The way she turns over her hocks is amazing. And, excellent body control on a young horse. Watch her sweep and stop dead eyed with the cow straight on. That's tough and rare, even on a seasoned horse. Those sort of moves win futurities.

    Filly number two is definately a futurity contender. I'm sure the person who bought her knows it, too. I'd love to see where she is a year from now. If her pedigree matches up, and she performs well, she'll also be a valuable addition to anybody's broodmare band.
    I agree Go Fish. The first filly appears to be a lot farther along in her reining than the second filly is. Something to think about here I think ....



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