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  1. #61
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    Oct. 30, 2009
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    There is a difference in "breaking" a horse and "gentleing" a horse.

    If your BO wants to see the consequences of restricting a horse's head show her this:

    http://fuglyblog.com/2012/05/21/cesa...f-horse-abuse/

    I wouldn't post the video even if I could find it. Too gruesome. This happened while the trainers were right there.

    Good on ya for acting.
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2012
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    Across the Atlantic
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    It's not just in Western Pleasure. Quite a few years ago, I was a working student in upstate NY and one of my Dad's old college buddies, who lived just across the border in CT, had recently bought his daughter her very first pony. My Dad's mate and his wife knew nothing about horses (although they were learning, fast) and I was invited to stay at theirs for a wee visit, meet the pony, and of course, offer any expert opinions I had (and I have many).

    They gave me the grand tour around the boarding stable, which was mainly focused on pony hunters. They said that their pony was kind of treated like a second class citizen because he wasn't a six-figure hunter pony and I was shocked that hunter ponies sell for that kind of money (I am a dressage person -- I'd expect that for a decent Grand Prix horse!), but I digress. I was also shocked that the ponies were turned out all day without any water, found some of the bits these young kids were riding in quite worrying, and never knew there were so many different types of equipment designed to strap a horse's head into an outline. But that wasn't the least of it. Mom told me that her daughter recently had a lesson where the pony kept running out to the right of the fence. After the third or fourth run-out, the trainer evidently hauled the kid off the pony, dragged pony into his stall, and cranked his head around, tying the bit to the girth or stirrup and leaving him like that for about an hour. The trainer said this would teach pony a lesson about running out. Mom told me that this made her uncomfortable, but she didn't know enough about horses and horse training to know whether it was kosher or not. I said that in my horsey circles, the word we have for that sort of thing was "abuse," and I explained how horses learn and that there was no way in hell the pony could connect his running out from a fence to the trainer trussing him up in his stall. The family moved the pony to a much better barn shortly thereafter.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec. 6, 2012
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    97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtph View Post
    I agree with you OP. You did the right thing.

    Good western trainers don't train like this. Good western horses aren't made like this. But from reading this thread it appears that most of you think they do. Please don't judge us all based on your limited experiences.

    Here's a video of a horse that is pretty natural and has been properly handled;

    http://youtu.be/4du4bXkNWYk
    Are you kidding?? That horse has had its tail 'done' so that it cannot move it. Watch it as it spins and runs, horses normaly do not tuck their tails like that.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    Quote Originally Posted by aqhadreamer View Post
    Are you kidding?? That horse has had its tail 'done' so that it cannot move it. Watch it as it spins and runs, horses normaly do not tuck their tails like that.
    You know, you could tell her/him that w/o disemboweling the reader in the process.

    I agree with your assessment of the horse's tail from what we can see, and I think you are correct. BUT- ripping rtph's face off with your response was not necessary.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Mar. 27, 2008
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    Maryland
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    Quote Originally Posted by aqhadreamer View Post
    Are you kidding?? That horse has had its tail 'done' so that it cannot move it. Watch it as it spins and runs, horses normaly do not tuck their tails like that.
    Yep, totally dead. A lot of Paso Finos have this done so I'm well accustomed to that tail tucked "beaten dog" look.
    You are what you dare.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Jul. 13, 2011
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    East Longmeadow, MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotGait View Post
    Yep, totally dead. A lot of Paso Finos have this done so I'm well accustomed to that tail tucked "beaten dog" look.


    Really? I haven't seen a one with a tail like that. Quite the opposite IME - tail sticks out in back like a flag when horse is even moderately excited. Just curious - where are the Pasos that you have seen that look like this? I haven't seen any Pasos outside of the Northeast US, myself.
    What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!



  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Deep South
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    14,615

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    You showed remarkable self control by not doing serious damage to the trainer.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2006
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    VA
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    11,372

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    Really? I haven't seen a one with a tail like that. Quite the opposite IME - tail sticks out in back like a flag when horse is even moderately excited. Just curious - where are the Pasos that you have seen that look like this? I haven't seen any Pasos outside of the Northeast US, myself.
    I believe that what she meant was that she agreed that the tail had been injected. And that she's seen that before. Your description of a tail is what a non-screwed with normal horse tail would look like. The video shows a horse who has most likely been injected to keep the tail down. No wringing, no flagging. No ability to move it. Unfortunately, seems pretty common these days.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...



  9. #69
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    Nov. 13, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    The BO has basically told you: my horse is big and dangerous and I am afraid of him, so I don't care what methods are used to get him under control, and the ones your describe aren't that uncommon with this type of training.

    If you continue to push, be prepared to be pushed out of the barn in return.

    When you fight with people like the trainer, they will usually dig in harder. Step in when needed, but do it quietly and you will be more likely to see results.

    As an aside, I have ridden at two barns with breed show trainers. Neither thought anything of turning a horse loose while others were hacking. They felt it made the ridden horses get used to whatever else was going on, and it gave their horses time to stretch their legs (as they tended to be kept in stalls or tiny pens). Made sense but I doubt MY insurance company would agree!
    Wow, I did not realize this was common! Disaster waiting to happen! I cannot even imagine...



  10. #70
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    Aug. 26, 2010
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    in the woodwork....
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    I just want to say how much I respect VLONG for doing something and saying something to both the trainer and the BO. When you board, sometimes we (myself included) swallow our distaste/disgust because we don't want to upset the applecart, get kicked out, have them retaliate on our horses.
    "I'm holding out for the $100,000 Crossrail Classic in 2012." --mem
    "With all due respect.. may I suggest you take up Croquet?" --belambi
    Proud Member of the Opinionated Redhead Club!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan. 8, 2007
    Location
    Rochester, NY
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    39

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    I want to thank all of you for your comments and advice. This certainly isn't the situation I thought I would find myself in.

    I will be keeping my options open and have started to look around - but as many have mentioned - this type of "training" is very commonplace. Apparently I have been wearing rose colored glasses. I had heard about abusive methods some trainers use but I never expected it to be in my own backyard. I have always been taught to treat all god's creatures with love and respect.

    I have been at my current barn for a year this month and never expected to see something like this and have it be an "acceptable" training method by someone I respected.

    This is something I will never be okay with. This is a large hunter/jumper barn. There are close to 50 horses boarded here. It is also my hope that one or five of the tweenyboppers and/or their parents who lesson and ride here witness the same and go running in horror to the BO.

    ****My Paso runs with his tail straight up in the air - it's a beautiful sight!***
    Last edited by vlong; Jan. 11, 2013 at 03:15 PM. Reason: additon


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Mar. 27, 2008
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    Maryland
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    Really? I haven't seen a one with a tail like that. Quite the opposite IME - tail sticks out in back like a flag when horse is even moderately excited. Just curious - where are the Pasos that you have seen that look like this? I haven't seen any Pasos outside of the Northeast US, myself.
    Most Colombian show Pasos have their tail nicked so it makes that awful "J-tail" look that they are so fond of. The top part is always tucked into their bum. I can't stand it, and thankfully there are more and more natural tails showing up in shows. There were many years of "You can't win without a cut tail!" nonsense though. Some of the tails were so botched that they completely flipped up in a "U" shape or went down about halfway and then stuck straight out the side. It really pisses me off when people screw around with a beautiful tail and make it ugly and nonfunctional.

    ETA: There are natural J-tails, but the top isn't dead and stuck to the horse's butt.
    You are what you dare.



  13. #73
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    Jun. 12, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlong View Post
    I want to thank all of you for your comments and advice. This certainly isn't the situation I thought I would find myself in.

    I will be keeping my options open and have started to look around - but as many have mentioned - this type of "training" is very commonplace. Apparently I have been wearing rose colored glasses. I had heard about abusive methods some trainers use but I never expected it to be in my own backyard. I have always been taught to treat all god's creatures with love and respect.

    I have been at my current barn for a year this month and never expected to see something like this and have it be an "acceptable" training method by someone I respected.

    This is something I will never be okay with. This is a large hunter/jumper barn. There are close to 50 horses boarded here. It is also my hope that one or five of the tweenyboppers and/or their parents who lesson and ride here witness the same and go running in horror to the BO.

    ****My Paso runs with his tail straight up in the air - it's a beautiful sight!***
    Good for you OP for being horrified. That is not training by any stretch of the imagination. If you see it again, take a picture, send it to AC and SPCA. Take your horse and get out. I wouldn't trust them.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec. 29, 2012
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    La La Land
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    To the OP, I am just so glad you were there to tend to that poor horse.
    I have also witnessed this type of training, except instead of going and getting another horse to ride like this guy did, the trainer I saw in action left the barn and went out to lunch. If we had not been there the horse would have died. It became so frantic it collapsed in its stall and almost asphyxiated. The trainers students discovered it and alerted us so we could help the poor thing.



  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2008
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    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    You showed far more restraint than I would have, if all you said was "You need your foot tied behind your head for 25 minutes - what do you think that would teach you?"

    I would not only have done what you did to relieve the horse's pain/stress etc, I would have taken pictures, and I would have told the idiot so called trainer that if I EVER saw him do that again, he was going to be reported for animal abuse, not just to local animal control authorities but to whatever breed organizations to which he belongs. I further would have told him that what he did was irresponisble and endangered all the other riders. Next I would have told BO that he must leave due to his being a danger to everyone as well as the horses. IF BO refuses, I would tell BO that the BO's insurance agent would be next on my list of notifications.

    Sheesh, I have steam coming out of my ears just thinking about this...
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  16. #76
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    Jun. 7, 2008
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    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookmaNohands View Post
    I wonder what would happen if a video of this trainer doing this to a horse ended up on youtube?
    YES!!!!!!!! Complete with name and location...and why you would not recommend anyone ever do business with the idiot.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2005
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    Kentucky
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    4,130

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    Quote Originally Posted by GotGait View Post
    Most Colombian show Pasos have their tail nicked so it makes that awful "J-tail" look that they are so fond of. The top part is always tucked into their bum. I can't stand it, and thankfully there are more and more natural tails showing up in shows. There were many years of "You can't win without a cut tail!" nonsense though. Some of the tails were so botched that they completely flipped up in a "U" shape or went down about halfway and then stuck straight out the side. It really pisses me off when people screw around with a beautiful tail and make it ugly and nonfunctional.

    ETA: There are natural J-tails, but the top isn't dead and stuck to the horse's butt.
    Sorry for the hijack, OP, but I am curious about the J-tail thing. Is it when the tail is held stiffly but very low with a kink in the bottom couple of inches? I knew a Paso that was used for breed demos that did that and I always assumed that he was uptight, but now that I think about it, I don't recall ever seeing him swish at flies. I did not realize that they did that to Pasos, which is a sucky thing to do.



  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2001
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    Los Angeles, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlong View Post
    - I do not own a QH or ride a QH. I ride gaited and do not have experience with QH's or their training. I firmly believe this was cruel and abusive.
    Abuse is not breed specific.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6



  19. #79
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    Mar. 17, 2003
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    North Texas, US
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    A few years ago I was at a vet clinic. There was a young (3 or4) QH there with a hard-to-describe, but ghastly neck injury. He couldn't turn his neck one way and couldn't lift his head above the withers. The vet told me that the trainer (a reining trainer in this case) had tied the horses' head to the ribcage and then gone to lunch. Yes, left the farm with the horse tied in the indoor. Something spooked the horse, and it freaked out. Ruptured muscles in his neck and did major vertebrae damage.

    In the "western world" in Texas, you see a lot of this crap. Makes me sick.

    As for tails, the reiners here inject the tails (with alcohol, I think...it's been a few years since I was around any of them) to deaden them. Before big competitions, you could drive by certain vet clinics and big rigs would be lined up full of horses there to be done.
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  20. #80
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    May. 20, 2005
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    Vlong, You did the right thing, the brave thing, but as other have said, be prepared for the consequences. I do hope your BO gets a clue and fires the trainer, but she evidently likes the way he handles horses.

    Look for your next place to land.

    No good deed goes unpunished. Unfortunately.


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