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  1. #1
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    Default David Copperfield as a sporthorse sire

    A thread about him popped up on the main forum page under Racing, so I peeked in. He's said to have been a good racehorse himself, but so far not producing much in that way (said his oldest are '05 models).

    I looked at his picture, see he's a direct son of Halo out of a Count Brook mare, he LOOKS to me like a nice sporthorse type, so it got me wondering:

    Would he be a good sporthorse sire? Eventing maybe?
    http://www.ohiostallions.com/DavidCopperfield.html

    His stud fee is certainly well within what sporthorse breeders would spend, only $1000 for 2013.

    Educate me
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  2. #2
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    Default

    He is very nice. I would like to see him turned into a sport horse or a sport horse sire. Well worth looking into.



  3. #3
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    This post is not at all helpful, but...

    It's fine to talk about whether a TB stallion would work for the SH market - but the potential new market has to be understood and embraced by the stallion manager And it's been my experience that when TB stallion managers have to deal with sporthorse breeders, they end up running full tilt away from the barn, screaming like a banshee. Definitely a case of "when worlds collide".
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin


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  4. #4
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    My take on this is always "why reinvent the wheel when there are already proven horses available?" I realize the only way horses get proven is because someone gave it a try but it isn't going to be with my mare/money. In this case, I believe the stallion manager would welcome sport horses with open arms since he only got three mares last year.


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  5. #5
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    Default

    When there are other T.B. Stallions who are proven sport horse producers, what is the reason to experiment with an unknown? Especially in the current market, it seems to me that sticking with a more proven entity would be a good idea.


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  6. #6
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    Yes, I know things can stop dead in their tracks because the SO isn't willing

    And yes, I know things have to start somewhere to get proven. And yeah, someone has to do it LOL

    I guess maybe the root of my question was missed. Given this horse's pedigree, does he seem like he's got what it takes to do this. I know Halo is a good racehorse sire, or at least a good (enough) sire of sires. I know there are a LOT of his kids/grandkids/etc who never raced, or came OT, and went on to sporthorse careers. I don't know anything about the dam side of any of those horses though. I don't know this horse's dam side.

    So maybe that's the better question - would his pedigree suggest he's got a good chance at producing pretty good sporthorses, and for what - eventing, jumpers, hunters?

    I suppose this is coming in the heels of a post Danny Emerson made on FB a few days ago, about the past life of "TB filtering" where many, many TBs came off the track and were evaluated and filtered to raise the cream of the crop to the Eventing level. That fell by the wayside, and now, as he sees it, it's at least making a bit of a come back by way of having all these OTTBs come through the likes of CANTER and Re-Run.

    People here have discussed the highlight of TBs in Eventing and Jumper history, lamenting its loss. If it's going to be brought back, getting more good TB blood into the mix, don't we have to start looking at some of these purely race-bred horses to get diversity?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlosmine View Post
    When there are other T.B. Stallions who are proven sport horse producers, what is the reason to experiment with an unknown? Especially in the current market, it seems to me that sticking with a more proven entity would be a good idea.
    Ok, humor me! I didn't say *I* am looking to do this. I don't know anyone who's looking for a new upcoming stallion.

    I am asking about this horse based on pedigree - does it lend itself to this, or not. That's all - this isn't about whether MOs should be jumping all over his low stud fee just to breed to a TB stallion
    ______________________________
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  8. #8
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    I like him and his pedigree certainly says he has potential. He's a good looking guy, he raced to age 5 and ran and won or placed in races over a mile -- all good things. I'd love to see some of the lightly used Thoroughbred stallions, such as this one, promoted to the sport breeders.
    PennyG


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  9. #9
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    I like his look and pedigree, but for me he's just to small.



  10. #10
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    I'm one who is open to the idea of using racing TB stallions for sport. HOWEVER, I want to know darn well what the stallion produces...looking at his page isn't enough, I want to see lots of his offspring, and evaluate them for sport suitability. Realistically, you're not going to be able to see dozens of them already under saddle and competing in your chosen sport discipline. But, if the sire is prolific enough, you can see a fair number of them on the farm, at the sales, and at the track. If you see enough individuals, you can learn what the stallion produces-- general type, conformational tendencies, faults, and movement.

    The good thing about many TB sires is they put a lot of horses on the ground...go to the Keeneland sales and you'll see many representatives of the same sires; you can learn what each stallion tends to throw (which may, or may not be seen in the pedigree!). If your goal is to breed a TB mare, this is very useful-- you're seeing what the TB stallion produces with TB mares just like yours! (Instead of a WB stallion who may only be bred to "selective" TB sport mares to produce outstanding sport prospects, you're looking at a TB stallion who's bred to a general racing population of TB mares, not selected for sport...if that TB stallion can produce sporty progeny from typical TB mares, I consider that a plus!)

    David Copperfield has about 80 horses on the ground; look at 20 or more of them and determine if you like what he produces. Does he give them good qualities? Or do they all look nothing alike, and take more after their dams? He bred about 20 horses a year 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007; since then just a handful. I know a couple sons of Halo that make decent sport horses, but pedigree alone is way too much a risk to breed, at any price.

    Personally, I'd pass. While I'm not breeding a racehorse, it is discouraging to see that his best runners, now 6 years old, earned less than $100,000. He had 23 runners this year, only 6 winners, and is ranked #97 on the Midwest Sires List (that's Indiana, Ohio, IL, Iowa, etc. Not Kentucky). That suggests that, while he probably got some pretty poor mares, he didn't do much (if anything) to improve them; he likely doesn't produce athletes, especially from average mares.


    For the sake of comparison, look at Action This Day (#7 Midwest List). He also stands for $1000 (in Indiana), with 48 winners from 95 runners in 2012. His best horse in 2012 earned $105,000, but he has 10 lifetime earners of 100,000 or more. Yes, he's been bred to a lot more mares than David Copperfield...but that shows that he is more desirable, and more foals on the ground means more for you to look at. Personally, I've noticed the Kris S/Roberto type is very heritable (BIG, long shoulders, cat-like walk, long strides, and Robertos can jump!). To me, he is better to investigate than David Copperfield. (Many stallions are...that's just one example.)
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~


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  11. #11
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    As an individual, the OP's stallion of question does not scream "sport horse" to me. His cannons are quite long and light all the way around, and he is a bit a square rather than a rectangle....He doesn't look scopy to me. Nimble, maybe, but he doesn't have the long shoulder and deep heart girth that I'd expect to see (and hope to be passed on) for a wonderful gallop and scope.

    Action Day makes a good contrasts in all of these features.



  12. #12
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    Ehh nothing to me screams "I want this stallion to breed to my mare".

    The only thing I really like about him is his name.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  13. #13
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    Double post
    Last edited by FLeventer; Jan. 10, 2013 at 02:43 PM.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  14. #14
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    Default

    Thanks - that's the sort of discussion I was looking for

    I agree Action Day is better looking. Thanks for the info on the Roberto line. Is that because of Roberto, or is it because of Kris S with the addition of the dam line?
    ______________________________
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Thanks - that's the sort of discussion I was looking for

    I agree Action Day is better looking. Thanks for the info on the Roberto line. Is that because of Roberto, or is it because of Kris S with the addition of the dam line?
    Robertos can jump; I know a son who was a steeplechaser and fox hunter. Roberto grandsons (through Dynaformer, most notably, but also Kris S, Lear Fan, etc) also make good steeplechasers/jumpers, too.

    What I mean by the highly heritable neck/shoulder, take a look at these pics:
    Dynaformer (by Roberto)
    --Temple City (by Dynaformer)
    Lear Fan (by Roberto)
    Kris S (by Roberto)
    Arch (by Kris S; he's got a chunky butt courtesy of damsire Danzig)
    --Blame (by Arch)
    Rock Hard Ten (by Kris S)
    -- Yearling by Rock Hard Ten
    Action This Day (by Kris S)
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~



  16. #16
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    Cool, thanks!

    I love all the shoulders, but Kris S WOW! And his kids are better than all the others as well.
    ______________________________
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  17. #17
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    Jess is a Kris S Granddaughter if that tells you anything!



  18. #18
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    JB, I am excited you posted this here!
    Since I now own a filly out of David Copperfield, I have been studying him like no other to figure out what type of foals he throws. I'm hoping my filly turns out to be a horse I can use for some eventing.



  19. #19
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    Laurie, I had no idea! Well no wonder she and Juliet are so awesome

    snydere - is that your new filly, or is it the one I posted about who needed a home and she landed with you?:
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  20. #20
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    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	51 
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ID:	37496
    Can you see the Kris S now?!



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