[stargzng386]

Ok so my horse has butt muscle/SI problems and I read on a number of threads about back pain to use liniment. So I started reading about different liniments and decided on sore no more. I bought the liquid kind because they didn't have the gel at the tack store. So here is my question...it's winter where I am and very cold. The first time I used it there was a specific spot on his back that was sore and a little warm so I sprayed it thoroughly, curried it in, let it sit for a bit and applied a towel soaked in hot water on top. I did rub out some of the liniment because I have read about sensitivities and wanted to take it easy the first time. Three days later when I was out next the soreness and heat was gone from that spot. So now I am left with my normal situation, my horse doesn't palpate sore most the time but his hind right butt muscle is weak and sore under saddle. I would like to use something to help reduce that soreness while I am slowly bringing him back to work. He does have a very thick winter coat right now so I feel that if I just spray the liniment in a layer on him it doesn't even actually reach his skin. Without a specific spot to target like last time I would go through a lot of liniment trying to get down to his skin on his whole back end. Will spraying some help at all or do I need to fully soak him with the liniment? Can I safely leave it on under his blanket or should I rinse/wipe some of it off? If I fully soak him with the liniment how often do you recommend using it? We do have hot water in our wash stall but at night during the week I don't have the proper blanket layers to be able to get him really wet when it's been hovering around freezing most nights. It is supposed to be warm this weekend in the 60's so I am planning on giving him a full bath and then sponging him with liniment. Should I follow the directions on the bottle for how much liniment to use in a gallon of water or should I use a stronger concentration? How long should it be left on to give any benefit before rinsing it off?

[JB]

Right butt muscle being sore and weak could be from a variety of things, including being out/sore on the left side of the withers.

For what you are doing/seeing, you need to do a lot more than just curry the area after applying the liniment. That only touches the surface, really. It needs to be massaged in.

I would also start finding folks to help you evaluate his saddle fit, a chiro to find what's out that's causing soreness, etc.

[stargzng386]

I have already had a chiropractor and vet look at him. It's from a bad spill he took 2 years ago on ice in his field and when he has a lenghty period of time away from work he needs to be brought back slowly. He had 2 months off due to pulling front shoes and a stone bruise in a back hoof so I'm bringing him back now. Once he is in full work he is 100% sound. The vet was out recently for the stone bruise and we talked about the muscle issue and she confirmed bringing him back slowly was the best option and she was there at the initial injury and knows his history. I have also had a massage done and there was a small difference after that lasted about a week. At the cost I can't afford once a week massages. The latest he had was osteopathy work and that did help the most but he also didn't find any major problems and repositioned everything. He didn't think he would need another adjustment for a few months. Unfortunately any chiro/osteopathy work isn't worth it at this moment because until he is in full work he will stay slightly off until his muscle is built up. I usually get him adjusted once we are past the walking trotting stage and has the muscle built up to canter because then it seems that the results help him better. I have had all of the professionals above check his saddle and all of them said that it fits him perfectly and none found any pain related to the saddle. He also hasn't gained or lost weight since the saddle was checked. Sorry I should have provided more background information! I was just looking for something to help with the soreness after riding during the cold months since he has a harder time when the temp drops.

[JB]

Has anyone showed you how to massage him? It doesn't sound like it should involve anything tricky or advanced. Don't forget too that adjacent muscling might also need to be massaged in order to help the muscle(s) in question.

Also, stretching can often help ease or prevent soreness. Did your chiro or MT show you any of that? Basic stretching would involve bringing the leg back as much as he will allow, and bringing it forward. A bonus for the forward is trying to get him to let you set the foot down as far under him as you can and have him leave it there for a bit.

Additional stretches involve lateral movement, but you have to be careful. A good one for the glutes is to grab the fetlock from the opposite side and gently cross the leg under the body

[stargzng386]

I would like to learn some massage techniques but I don't know any right now. Any good book/video suggestions? I can fully admit I suck at massage on people too lol. I do the stretching of the leg back and forward and I do regular carrot stretches where he flexes his head all the way around to his butt each way and underneath towards his tummy everytime he is turned out. Next time I have the chiro/osteopathy person out I can ask for some more stretches to try. I can try the one where you mentioned for lateral movement I haven't done that before.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Jim Masterson's book and video, The Masterson Method are awesome. If you buy it from his website you can pick up the book and DVD together. You could also pick up Jack Meagher's book Beating Muscle Injuries for Horses I have the video (VHS) that goes with this also but I picked it up in a tack shop a few years ago and haven't seen it online anywhere.

You can't go wrong with either one of those books.

[DoubleDown]

You can use SNM under his blanket/sheet. It's the only brand that is safe/recommended to bandage over. Other brands can blister if used under a bandage which I would think would cause the same reaction with a blanket. I would use it whenever you noticed he was sore. It's pretty gentle, and work it down into his skin. If you use it as a brace it won't be as strong as using it full strength. I use the brace for a full "just want to make you feel a little nice" and full strength for "I know you are really sore in this specific spot" type situations. Does that make sense?

Don't rinse it off either.

[JB]

Meagher's book should be required ownership for all horse owners Even if you never feel really comfortable doing the things in the book without hands-on teaching, the descriptions and issues are invaluable for understanding how things can go wrong

[deltawave]

If your horse has made it this far without liniment, chances are he'll never notice this deficiency. It is so ridiculously overhyped, and nearly without value IMO.

Yes to massage and stretching and perhaps the application of heat via various means for a horse with sore muscles. But liniment? Waste of time, money, and chemicals for the most part.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Ah found Meagher's video in DVD!
http://www.thehorsestudio.com/dvdbea...einjuires.html

But the book is a must. It shows you all the stress points and it's spiral bound so great to have with you at the barn. There's only one left on Amazon right now, the used copies are expensive!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

If your horse has made it this far without liniment, chances are he'll never notice this deficiency. It is so ridiculously overhyped, and nearly without value IMO.

Yes to massage and stretching and perhaps the application of heat via various means for a horse with sore muscles. But liniment? Waste of time, money, and chemicals for the most part.

Agree... the benefit of the liniment is the massage that comes with it.

[kmmoran]

I use liniment to massage, and I learned the techniques from our chiro/massage person. Maybe the next time you have them out they can show you! It's always nice to have a "lesson" in person

Also, try a heating pad. I got one at CVS for like $30. I plug it in and let it get hot, then leave it plugged and supervise it being on my horse's SI area for about 15 minutes. If it's really cold I put a cooler over it/her but I avoid blankets going over it in case I need a quick removal and the cord gets with the straps. It really works wonders! My chiro originally recommended it. I see a difference not only in the tightness (Maybe I should say looseness) of her muscles but even her facial expression softens and she starts to yawn and chew and put her head low.

[coloredhorse]

I would like to learn some massage techniques but I don't know any right now. Any good book/video suggestions? I can fully admit I suck at massage on people too lol. I do the stretching of the leg back and forward and I do regular carrot stretches where he flexes his head all the way around to his butt each way and underneath towards his tummy everytime he is turned out. Next time I have the chiro/osteopathy person out I can ask for some more stretches to try. I can try the one where you mentioned for lateral movement I haven't done that before.

stargzng, I'd recommend you have a GOOD massage therapist out again for two reasons: (1) to get a competent evaluation of your horse's main issues and a good massage session to address them and (2) to get "homework" from your therapist for you to apply. I always give my clients homework that includes some massage and stretching (which I demonstrate and then oversee them doing to ensure it is correct) and any in-hand or under-saddle exercises that I think will help.

This work will help the results of the professional massage "stick" better. Most of my clients go anywhere from 4-8 weeks between massages. Some of my owners are super-diligent in their homework and could really get by with me coming out 2-3 times a year.

If you wanted to share your location, there is a chance I could recommend someone nearby or at least point you toward some resources to help you find a really good therapist who will help you learn to help your horse. The recommended books/videos are great and you should pick them up, but IME, it's best to start with some in-person instruction, since massage (and stretching) are "feel" skills and that can be difficult to pick up just from reading/watching vids.

[JB]

Agree - tell your MT you really want to learn to help your horse, but simply can't afford to have him/her out weekly or monthly. No good MT would turn you down - you're still paying them for that visit, and worst case they won't be out again because you have it under control, but if you aren't having them out anyway because of $$, well... But if you do have them back, they will like to know if the horse is making progress because of your work, or not making progress despite your work, both of which are helpful pieces of information

One problem with books and videos like have been discussed is that they are more or less comprehensive. That's great for everyone. But, when you already have a very specific issue, the best thing for the horse right now is learn what you can do specifically for that. That's a lot more bang for your buck *at this moment*.

It won't be wasted either - what you learn will transfer to everything else

[Foxtrot's]

Old Pony Club phrase - "Never rub and wrap". A lot of liniments can cause blistering. And if someone recomends DMSO use it with proper advice.

[Calamber]

You can wrongly use and overuse any product but I am absolutely of the school that liniment does and will help to loosen tight muscles and even though there are many who really abhor the notion that anecdotes are not the plural of "data" I will offer mine. I had a horse that was run into a fence by a deranged gelding and his equally deranged sidekick dominant mare. The gelding in question was forced to save himself by jumping sideways over a 4 board fence and caught himself on the long muscle along his rib cage, abraded his chest between the front and hind ankle in his struggles. I had to have a vet out to stitch the muscle tissue that was very near to nicking the rib cage which caused a soft ball sized hole in that area. During nursing care I used only a wash made with chamomile tea, zinc oxide on the perimeter of the hole, and Sore No More on the abraded and torn muscle/ankle area. I never had another vet visit, and he healed with no scars.

I used Sore No More on the pockets of serum that collected between his front legs from the front of the chest to his girth line, at least 4 inches deep and 8 long. It was absorbed in two days, same goes for the soft tissue swelling on the ankle.

I also used for extreme muscle spasms on myself, the no longer available sticky patch made by Absorbine, if I did not, I was in excrutiating pain, if I did I could sleep.

All of this to say, under the right conditions and using the right product, you better damn well believe that it can work to help stimulate the healing process. It is not going to help outside of assisting the healing process if done correctly. Sore No More certainly can be used under blankets or wraps, and with the assistance of more knowledgeable training, conditioning and exercise, it can help and I have seen it help dramatically. I also removed some very serious bruising on myself caused by a kick to my forearm, using only Himalayan Salt Baths, SNM and Ibuprofen. Take that for what it is worth, as long as you see progress, use it. Very thoughtful and caring of you to continue on with a horse that has had that kind of injury OP. I hope much success in your journey.


I would also follow Coloredhorses' advice, not Camus' though").

[stargzng386]

I am in Northern Virginia I would appreciate any massage recommendations or places to look for a good one. It's hard when there are so many out there to know who is ok and who is really good.

stargzng, I'd recommend you have a GOOD massage therapist out again for two reasons: (1) to get a competent evaluation of your horse's main issues and a good massage session to address them and (2) to get "homework" from your therapist for you to apply. I always give my clients homework that includes some massage and stretching (which I demonstrate and then oversee them doing to ensure it is correct) and any in-hand or under-saddle exercises that I think will help.

This work will help the results of the professional massage "stick" better. Most of my clients go anywhere from 4-8 weeks between massages. Some of my owners are super-diligent in their homework and could really get by with me coming out 2-3 times a year.

If you wanted to share your location, there is a chance I could recommend someone nearby or at least point you toward some resources to help you find a really good therapist who will help you learn to help your horse. The recommended books/videos are great and you should pick them up, but IME, it's best to start with some in-person instruction, since massage (and stretching) are "feel" skills and that can be difficult to pick up just from reading/watching vids.

[JB]

SNM contains arnica which is an old and wonderful holistic remedy for bruising and swelling But, it's got to get there first.

So, the SNM where you were using it could much more easily get into those muscles to a higher % than into something very dense thick like the glutes.

Our muscles are much closer to the surface than most horses (even thin-skinned horses generally have skin thicker than most people), and they aren't as dense or thick, so topicals tend to work a bit better for us

I agree any liniment, no matter how mild, has the potential to burn a given horse. But of all the ones out there, SNM is the least likely to do it IME. Many horses have been rubbed and wrapped with SNM without any issues. I do know one personally who can't have that done though.

[stargzng386]

Thanks everyone for the recommendations I am looking into ordering the books/dvds as a starting point. I think I'll use the sore no more when he palpates sore in his muscles but skip it when he's not. I do have a quartersheet that I ordered to help keep his muscles warm when I ride. I will also look into a heating pad I have to see how close I can easily get him to a plug. He really is the best horse perfectly safe for beginners to get on and a blast to jump. He just needs to get back in shape and then he feels much better. To be honest I wouldn't feel comfortable selling him with this type of an injury because it really takes patience to deal with it. I wouldn't want him to end up a pasture pet or being ridden to hard where he's in pain. He really likes work and would be so bored without regular interaction with people and he's only 10. Since the initial injury there was a time period where he was back in shape and happily jumping around courses but then I hurt my shoulder and we haven't quite gotten back to that point yet. I'm now completly healthy and ready to get him back in shape too Even if I have to spend a long time on w/t work and progress very slowly as long as I'm in the saddle I'm happy

[stargzng386]

So I ordered Meagher's book. I am going to wait on the dvd until I read the book and have another massage therapist out. Same for Masterson's book, there are lots of copies left and I agree I would rather spend the money on a good massage therapist that can show me some massage/stretches to do with him.