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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2011
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    75

    Default Pre-Green Incentive Program

    If you are interested in this program, you're probably aware that very few shows have signed up to offer the class yet and the January 31 deadline for the lowest nomination fee is fast-approaching. Apparently shows only need to submit their prize lists 30 days before the competition starts, which creates a bit of an issue for those of us who would like to sign up but don't want to waste the money if there won't be any shows offering the class that we can actually get to. I understand that there is a plan at the USHJA to try to get things moving but they are also encouraging people to reach out directly to show management and encourage them to offer the class. So, if you like this program, call your favorite show managers and tell them you are interested!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Default

    I noticed the same thing. Great idea, but not many shows on the list yet. I hope it catches on.

    Maybe the USHJA could extend the deadline for the lower nomination fee?



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
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    1,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rb5007 View Post
    If you are interested in this program, you're probably aware that very few shows have signed up to offer the class yet and the January 31 deadline for the lowest nomination fee is fast-approaching. Apparently shows only need to submit their prize lists 30 days before the competition starts, which creates a bit of an issue for those of us who would like to sign up but don't want to waste the money if there won't be any shows offering the class that we can actually get to. I understand that there is a plan at the USHJA to try to get things moving but they are also encouraging people to reach out directly to show management and encourage them to offer the class. So, if you like this program, call your favorite show managers and tell them you are interested!
    Would not be surprised if the lack of show support has to do with problems with the program.
    There is no verification if the horse is even eligible pregreen before they are signed up for the program.
    They give section awards for TB's, based on age and US breeder but again they do not verify any of that information. The claim is that USEF/USHJA has no way to check that information.

    The JC T.T.P program requires a copy of the JC papers. It's that simple yet USHJA can't even enforce that.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2001
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    on the road.....again
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    Default

    Sadly it is a catch 22. It is a VERY expensive class for a show to offer, especially when not very pre-green horse would be eligible for it.



    Show managers are waiting to see if people in their area sign up their horses, owners are waiting to see if shows in their area offer it.

    Part of the problem is that USHJA never requested shows to sign up with them. They are simply waiting for the prize list to be submitted to USEF with the class listed. Then it gets flagged and appears on the USHJA show. Shows do not have to submit their prize list until 30 days prior to the start of their show.

    I think the concept is great, but the expenses on both sides (owner and shows) is quite large for a first year program.

    If a show offers the $1000 class with the 10% entry cap, they need 25 to 34 horses to break even (depending on how they factor in the payment of USHJA). That's a lot of pre-green horses per show! Offer more in prize money and the break even # drops.

    At the convention when this was pointed out, they didn't have much of an answer except to say a show is not required to offer it. To me that is a shame as many shows I believe wanted to offer it, but can't justify the cost unless they have a sponsor (and we know how difficult they are to come by). It actually costs more for a show to offer this than it does the National Hunter Derby (and that has few restrictions on who can enter).



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2003
    Posts
    446

    Default

    I just checked the website and the calendar I saw only goes thru April. The shows listed are spread out....how are we supposed to know what might be approved for the rest of the year. I'd sure rather pay $350 than $550 next month, but there is only one show anywhere near me coming up in the spring.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2011
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    If a show offers the $1000 class with the 10% entry cap, they need 25 to 34 horses to break even (depending on how they factor in the payment of USHJA). It actually costs more for a show to offer this than it does the National Hunter Derby (and that has few restrictions on who can enter).
    Wow - that is nuts, no wonder no one is signing up. It seems inevitable that this will fail unless something gets changed. I don't see why they always want to make the young horse programs so expensive. It is expensive enough to raise them and get them broke. I guess we will just stick with the Capital Challenge Future Hunters instead.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Default

    It seems they always approach these things ass backwards. The same thing happened with the HB program that was tried a few years ago. The announcement came out, the $$was announced, but they wanted it to run over two days! Now, how many shows have room for a new division, much less over two days? It seems that FIRST, they should secure a sponsor(s) or some kind of fund to cover the cost of adding it to shows. Then approach a number of shows in enough areas of the country so that anyone interested can get to a couple of them. Provide an incentive for signing up/enrolling your horse like major discounts for early payment, discounts for multiple horses under one owner, etc. but ave the SHOWS on board before launching it. If the cost is minimal or none to the show, they won't mind trying it out for a couple years until it catches on, even if entries are low to start. Of course they are going to want to see if it will fly, but no program will be at its peak in the first couple years. Texas just had one, but I think it was heavily sponsored.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


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  8. #8
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    May. 17, 2000
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    Either that or they could check with the AQHA on what the term "incentive" actually means. It reads a lot more like an incentive for the USHJA bank account.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  9. #9
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    Sep. 24, 2001
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    Default

    Supposedly with was based off of AQHA and reining incentive programs. Part of the problem to shows is that 50% of the entry has to be added back on top of the guaranteed prize money. That is the part that kills the shows. Then the show has to pay USHJA $20 per entry out of the entry fee. Doesn't leave much to actually "run" the class.

    My understanding is that the fee from the owners will be the "pot" for the finals. That is a great idea, but why did the cost to the shows have to be so high at the start, especially for a select small number of exhibitors.

    Laurie - I remember when the started it and cancelled it before the first show due to lack of horses signing up!


    It really saddens me to see a great concept that people could have really gotten behind struggle this much at the beginning. I just don't see the number of pre-green horses across the country being that large to encourage shows to offer it.

    They said at the convention that they felt shows would profit from the class by bringing more pre-green horses to their show. That might be the case in some areas, but areas with lots of shows, I don't see there being enough horses signing up.

    I do hope they prove me wrong and it it becomes a huge success.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    It really saddens me to see a great concept that people could have really gotten behind struggle this much at the beginning. I just don't see the number of pre-green horses across the country being that large to encourage shows to offer it.

    They said at the convention that they felt shows would profit from the class by bringing more pre-green horses to their show. That might be the case in some areas, but areas with lots of shows, I don't see there being enough horses signing up.
    Yes, I just looked at the calendar again. It doesn't list the class at WEF or Hits or Gulfport. If those shows where people congregate all winter don't think there will be enough entries to support the class, where would it be viable after everyone disperses in the spring?

    List is here:
    http://ushja.org/programs/pregreen/pg_calendar.aspx



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    Supposedly with was based off of AQHA and reining incentive programs. Part of the problem to shows is that 50% of the entry has to be added back on top of the guaranteed prize money. That is the part that kills the shows. Then the show has to pay USHJA $20 per entry out of the entry fee. Doesn't leave much to actually "run" the class.

    My understanding is that the fee from the owners will be the "pot" for the finals. That is a great idea, but why did the cost to the shows have to be so high at the start, especially for a select small number of exhibitors.

    Laurie - I remember when the started it and cancelled it before the first show due to lack of horses signing up!


    It really saddens me to see a great concept that people could have really gotten behind struggle this much at the beginning. I just don't see the number of pre-green horses across the country being that large to encourage shows to offer it.

    They said at the convention that they felt shows would profit from the class by bringing more pre-green horses to their show. That might be the case in some areas, but areas with lots of shows, I don't see there being enough horses signing up.

    I do hope they prove me wrong and it it becomes a huge success.
    Lack of shows was also a problem. We are in VA, for Pete's sake, and there was no show within 5-6 hours, as I recall!

    There really needs to be "starter" pot to give the program some breathing room to make discounts possible and get the owners aware and interested. And USHJA nrrds to keep their mitts off the $$ for the first five years or so. Let the program and the horse shows work together to gain momentum without having to worry aabout paying USHJA. Sponsors!!!
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 1999
    Location
    Middleburg VA and Southampton NY
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    6,111

    Default

    Sounds like a huge chicken/egg problem. A good idea that will not get off the ground because the pieces that make up the whole don't fit together properly. Like, the picture on the box in the store that looks great, but you get it home and discover many components are not included.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    201

    Default

    I have what looks to be a very nice 3' pre green horse right now. It sounds like a neat incentive program and I'd love to support it but damn does USEF/USHJA make this stuff difficult. So I'm supposed to shell out several hundred dollars and then HOPE that enough shows that I attend have the class to make it worthwhile? Um, no.


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  14. #14
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Default

    ^ Ditto. Exactly.

    And of course, if a bunch of shows add it later in the year, the horse's nomination fee is more than double by then.


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  15. #15
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    Jan. 27, 2000
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    Default

    I think this Pre Green Incentive program looks good - on paper. The theory is good but unfortunately - like several other USHJA programs - the founders did not thoroughly consider the down side. I suspect the reason for these type of oversights is primarily due to committees consisting of the like minded rather than populated with greater diversity.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for any program whose objective is to promote hunters. The International Hunter Derby being one example. However it should be noted that program continues to tweak its format.



  16. #16

    Default

    The Pre Green Incentive program worked well in Texas and had great participation in 2012, its first year. I don't know why it wouldn't work in other regions of the country.



  17. #17
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    That was a regional program and I suspect other regional programs would succeed too as they could work with shows and owners to tailor a program that fits their area. Zone 7 is very different make up of shows and owners than say Zone 2 (land of the one days).



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2011
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    75

    Default

    In case you haven't seen it, the USHJA has posted a list of additional shows that have declared their intent to host a class:

    https://www.ushja.org/programs/pregr...nts/events.PDF



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    I saw it announced somewhere that it will also be held twice this winter at WEF, although I don't see it listed on the USHJA calendar yet.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2007
    Location
    Northern Va
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    635

    Default

    ^Still no shows in VA on the new list. Guess my girl will be sitting this program out as I don't want to waste the $$$ on the registration without any confirmed shows in my area.
    "A canter is the cure for every evil."



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