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  1. #41
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    EqTrainer-you are going to receive lots of advice-so feel free to filter through and take what you wish.

    Some points-just because his toes are at the White Line isn't a true indication that they are as far back as the need to be.

    The entire FOOT can migrate forward so you can have a tight white line and still have FFS-

    So...keeping in mind, toes pull hees forward and toes push heels back, AND knowing he gets sore when you muck with his toes, I personally would just TRY taking the toes back and not touching the heels for at least one trim cycle.

    Because we love nice low wild horse heels, this makes most of us with a rasp fetish get all squirmy-but I really feel you will be nervous addressing both-EVEN if his heels look like they need to come back.

    At most I would literally do just a rasp swipe to level thim IF NEEDED and focus on the toes.

    Addressing the toes can be done 3 ways-or a combo of 2 or 3 of them.

    One is a vertical cutback-where the rasp is 90 deg to the sole-or held perpendicular to the sole.

    The second is a bevel or a 45 deg rasp back or cut (this is shown on Marjorie's site.

    The 3rd is a rocker-ala Gene O, NB trimming-the angle of the rasp is about 15-20 deg above the sole.

    What you may need to do, or what *I* would do is a vertical cutback to halfway into the water line-this is actually the white area of the toe, or the unpigmented part of the hoof wall (the water line is not white but cream color).

    From there, it depends on how much room I have to the toe callous...

    If you have sole between the toe callous and the white line, you can rocker that area...if not, then don't rocker.

    If he is landing heel first, then I would likely skip the rocker and go straight to bevel.

    you then do the bevel between the toe callous to the vertical cutback-if that makes sense-this will give the appearance of a SUPER mustang roll when the foot is on the ground.

    BUT when you or your farrier do this do NOT touch the callous-as Pete says NOT ONE SWIPE.

    I will actually cover the callous with my gloved thumb just be be very safe.

    If you do this and leave the heels, I am pretty sure (note: PRETTY SURE) your horse will not end up being sore.

    As far as the toeing in and more lateral concavity-I am not sure if that is true concavity or just an illusion because he grows more wall...either way it really doesn't matter in the BIG picture.

    Pete has a great way of describing sole thickness-if the sole has a flat spot near the wall, then the foot is still not to its full concavity and do NOT TOUCH ANY SOLE...because the foot is trying to grow and pack down sole.

    If the sole slopes all the way to the white/wall, then it is probably to its full depth-either way I don't touch it.

    I used to scrape the sole until I reached live sole-now I leave anything that is not just BEGGING to come off...I find this little bit of 'dead' sole (not crumbling, but not packed) provides a natural 'sock' that keeps them comfy on more difficult terrain...before when I took this sole, they could be tender over gravel for a day or two.

    Again, the pros may disagree with this conservative approach, but I find it to be safe and effective.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH
    the water line is not white but cream color
    E-hem... *giggle*

    The water line is white, the white line is creamy colored.

    Back to your regularly scheduled discussion
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #43
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Thanks

    I have the bad creepies about working on his toe aggressively... think I will do as Caballus suggested and just go a little bit every other day and seeing what happens. I will resist touching his heels <LOL> actually I think they are fine, at least for now and will do ok with some planned benign neglect. I don't have any asphalt.. but I swear his pasture is MADE of it right now.. could longe him out there. He could also go for a walk down the hardpacked driveway.

    Until yesterday I had never taken any sole off of him <LOL> as previously noted, I am afraid of my hoof knife. Glad to get to put it away again.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    3,601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookout
    A farrier that makes the same rounds that I do, has a laser thermometer and has measured feet he has shod, and feet I have trimmed. We have done this enough to make a good correlation of about 10 degrees difference. This carries through on a horse with shod fronts/bare hind for example. Clearly, if you're only measuring one person's work, you're not going to get a valid result. It only shows that that person's barefoot work doesn't give much more hoof mechanism than the shod samples. He wants to do a "study" to measure the same feet throughout the day as well, but IMO that's an unecessary waste of time and a moot point because when you measure all the feet at the same they're all subject to the same governing circumstances.
    I'm sorry, you seem to have misunderstood....we did not measure ONE person's work...we maeasured many....some on horses that have never been trimmed/shod.

    Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis, I would be skeptical of using that model as part of a study....unless I were looking to compare all models.
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  5. #45
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    Mar. 10, 2003
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    "Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis, I would be skeptical of using that model as part of a study"


    What "method" is that?
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  6. #46
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB
    E-hem... *giggle*

    The water line is white, the white line is creamy colored.

    Back to your regularly scheduled discussion

    Good Grief---I can see it now-someone sees a post by LMH and RACES to find all the typos.

    We could start a little money pool...taking bets...and seeing who is first to correct me.

    well heck...you KNOW what I meant



  7. #47
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    May. 12, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by slb
    Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis
    Unless you've seen any examples of my work, and I sincerely doubt that, I strongly suggest you retract this statement, since you have nothing to base this on except your assumptions. That's a highly inflammatory and irresponsible claim to make on the internet, slb, and I don't think it helps EqTrainer's situation.
    Visit my barefoot blog:
    http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
    "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys



  8. #48
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Aacck! What's up with you guys? slb, I would really appreciate your opinion here.

    I have a great deal of respect for *all* of you and am hoping between what you see and what I can tell you about him we can develop a reasonable plan to control this FFS (Forward Facing Slide ).

    I am heading out there with a NEW rasp now. May the hoof gods be with me...



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
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    North East, MD
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    I've had pretty good success rehabbing long toes the way LMH describes. I've got one OTTB that is halfway through the process. His hoof from the halfway point up are at a different (i.e. correct) angle than the lower portion. The lower portion is at the same angle they were when I pulled his shoes after he came off the track. I trim them all the way back to the white line and give him a good role. He is never sore after this trim, because I leave the sole at the to alone. At first I took his heels down because of how forward they are. Lately I have been leaving a little more heel, and he seems fine.

    So, the entire hoof capsule has migrated forward at the toe, and his white line is nice and tight. But when the new hoof grows all the way down, his toe will naturally be much shorter. Sometimes you have to work toward what you know is right for the horse a little at a time. You've got to see where you want to go and figure out a gradual way to get there. I find Pete Ramey's technique of doing the vertical nips and more distinct roll (as described by LMH) to be a great way to achieve it.

    The horse described above has beautiful concavity that seems to be unaffected one way or the other by the trims. However, I have two flat-footed OTTB's whose concavity improved a lot at first but have not have not gotten much better since then by my trimming method. One could argue that my trimming is at fault, or one could argue that perhaps their coffin bones don't have much concavity. I don't know the answer. Race horses are bred for speed, not hoof health.

    They are sound for turnout barefoot, but both are sensitive on rocks--heel pain. I use boots for trail riding. If I wanted to show either of them, I think they'd need shoes to stay sound.

    Other horses I trim using this method have all retained or improved their original concavity, and actually get tougher over rough terrain. I've only made a horse sore after a trim once or twice by backing up the toes using Pete Ramey's methods--I suspect it was lowering the heels rather than backing up the toes that made those horses sore. I often have to trim for clients right before a show or long trail ride, so I get lots of feedback about how the horses perform after a trim. It seems some people don't look closely at their horses' feet until the day before a show!

    None of the horses I trim have a narrow heel the way your horse does, so I can't comment about that. It makes me wonder about the internal structures of the hoof, because the widest part is so far forward. I would think your horse would be prone to heel pain, but that is just a guess. Thanks for asking the question and posting the pics. I've found the discussion to be very informative. I can't wait to see more comments.



  10. #50
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by matryoshka
    The horse described above has beautiful concavity that seems to be unaffected one way or the other by the trims. However, I have two flat-footed OTTB's whose concavity improved a lot at first but have not have not gotten much better since then by my trimming method. One could argue that my trimming is at fault, or one could argue that perhaps their coffin bones don't have much concavity. I don't know the answer. Race horses are bred for speed, not hoof health.

    They are sound for turnout barefoot, but both are sensitive on rocks--heel pain. I use boots for trail riding. If I wanted to show either of them, I think they'd need shoes to stay sound.
    My trimmer has achieved a lot of concavity with my OTTB's. we do trails and go on rocks. She works a lot on opening up the contracted heels right away and scoops the quarters to get rid of the underrun heels.
    I found the more I walk the horses on asphalt (road) the more we achieve in hoof funtion.
    I can take one of the horses out on the trail and they start out a bit guarded, but by time we get back, there is no tenderness even on gravel. So I think alot of it is in the conditioning as well.

    Just my thoughts.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  11. #51
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    luvmytbs-how often and how long are you doing asphalt walks (as the UK calls it-tarmac promenade or TPs)?

    I think it is pretty amazing how fast the feet change doing it.



  12. #52
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    Mar. 10, 2003
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    Massachusetts, USA
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    "So I think alot of it is in the conditioning as well."

    Conditioning has more than alot to do with the rehab! I encourage my clients to walk, walk, walk, walk and more walk on tarred roads. I saw the most dramatic result of this on an OTTB ... 1st trim he was ouchy on gravel at best. 3 weeks later the owner called me to tell me that he was 100% at all gaits on gravel, tar and pasture! When I went back for the 5th week (2nd trim) the hooves had no more white line separation, no more thrush, no more contracted heels, no more yuckies at all. His hooves were gorgeous! This on a horse who had had the shoes pulled just 5 weeks prior and had been in shoes for 16 years!! The owner was very diligent and walked her horse sometimes 4 times a day for 1/2 hr. a walk up and down the road.

    We, as hoofcare providers, do nothing more than provide an adequate "template" into which the new hoof grows. The movement of the horse, the environment, the diet, and all the rest does the healing (or not). Even if the template is not "perfect", the hooves can and do restore themselves to health through proper conditioning and lifestyle. It's pretty amazing!!!
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  13. #53
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Thank you everyone I rolled his toes (and to the widest part of the foot) yesterday afternoon.. boy that new rasp is handy <LOL> but I realize I will have to buy a hoofstand, my thighs are only so "made of steel"...

    He seems ok this AM. When I looked at his foot yesterday with a fresh eye, it really is as if he has two different feet, within the same foot, going on. I think what has baffled me has been the tight white line. I am going to call my farrier Monday and get his opinion too, now that I can ask the right question I have found that with all farriers the right question is essential <LOL> he always takes off more toe/rolls him more than I do. I am suspicious he will tell me that is what he wanted me to do but didn't want to push me past my comfort level trimming.

    I have NO asphalt or concrete here. I DO have pasture that at this time is hard as a damn rock due to the drought. So I will probably longe him there and walk him up the clay driveway a bit. Today is his birthday.. what a birthday present

    If you all are interested, I will keep a journal and post pics.. weekly? Would that be frequent enough or too frequent?

    slb, where are you? Your opinion means much to me.



  14. #54
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH
    luvmytbs-how often and how long are you doing asphalt walks (as the UK calls it-tarmac promenade or TPs)?

    I think it is pretty amazing how fast the feet change doing it.
    I start with 10 minute hand walks and by end of the first week up to 30 minutes if the horse has issues like flat soles. It seems the horse totally loves the walks, as if he knows that his feet are changing.

    If the horse has good feet to start with, I get lazy and ride them on the road right from the bat, same time as above though. By end of first week, I normally have a horse who wants to trot on the road.

    We need to ride on the roads for about half a mile to get to the trails so that adds to any conditioning. After that there is gravel for a little while and then the trails are a mix of soft ground, hard ground and big rocks and lots of hills.

    A friend of mine added round rocks into her pasture by the gate and found her horses stand on them all the time. One even paws the rocks as if to create a mustang roll. Smart TB gelding!

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  15. #55
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs
    I start with 10 minute hand walks and by end of the first week up to 30 minutes if the horse has issues like flat soles. It seems the horse totally loves the walks, as if he knows that his feet are changing.

    If the horse has good feet to start with, I get lazy and ride them on the road right from the bat, same time as above though. By end of first week, I normally have a horse who wants to trot on the road.

    We need to ride on the roads for about half a mile to get to the trails so that adds to any conditioning. After that there is gravel for a little while and then the trails are a mix of soft ground, hard ground and big rocks and lots of hills.

    A friend of mine added round rocks into her pasture by the gate and found her horses stand on them all the time. One even paws the rocks as if to create a mustang roll. Smart TB gelding!
    No roads other than gravel. I REALLY live in the country!

    What now?



  16. #56
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    Dec. 9, 2005
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    North East, MD
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    Okay, you guys have convinced me to walk my horse on asphalt and see if he improves. His angles are great, no contraction, but the wall just don't seem to be strong enough. The ground is so hard that when his walls reach the ground they want to splay out. I guess if he wears them off instead it will be a big improvment.

    The horse loves to sniff the ground like a dog when I trail ride him, so maybe he'll want to act like a dog on the leash, too. I bet I can teach him tricks. He's quite a character.

    By the way, I don't think all OTTB's have terrrible feet. I trim quite a few that have great feet. It just seems that some are more persistantly flat footed than others. This particular horse is Kentucky bred, by Skipaway. He went through the yearling sale, probably shod at that time, and wore shoes until I got him off the track. The same goes with the flat-footed mare. The one I'm currently rehabbing was bred and raced by the same owner: hence, no yearling sale, no shoes until he went into training, good concavity. I do wonder if early shoeing--and no expansion room so they don't pull the shoes--contributes to flat, weak feet when they are full grown.

    I'll post an update when I've tried some asphalt walking. I'm always willing to learn/try something new.



  17. #57
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    matryoshka-perhaps he needs a stronger mustang roll to keep his outer wall from contacting the ground.

    Also have you checked his breakover-if it is too far forward it will keep the feet eternally flat.

    Gene's 2/3 from the widest part of the foot to the back of the heels and 1/3 from widest part to the point of breakover (back of the toe callous) seems to work best to get the foot in the proper form to all concavity to come.

    Also make sure you really are attentive to flares-don't just eyeball it but lay your rasp down the hoof wall and make sure there is no daylight between the hoof wall and rasp.

    I used to eye ball flare and was constantly chasing it in between trims-it wasn't until I used the rasp to check for flares, but a heavy or heavy roll (rasp about 45 deg angle and back up half into the inner or unpigmented wall) and get the breakover correct-flares will disappear.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH
    matryoshka-perhaps he needs a stronger mustang roll to keep his outer wall from contacting the ground.

    Also have you checked his breakover-if it is too far forward it will keep the feet eternally flat.

    Gene's 2/3 from the widest part of the foot to the back of the heels and 1/3 from widest part to the point of breakover (back of the toe callous) seems to work best to get the foot in the proper form to all concavity to come.

    Also make sure you really are attentive to flares-don't just eyeball it but lay your rasp down the hoof wall and make sure there is no daylight between the hoof wall and rasp.

    I used to eye ball flare and was constantly chasing it in between trims-it wasn't until I used the rasp to check for flares, but a heavy or heavy roll (rasp about 45 deg angle and back up half into the inner or unpigmented wall) and get the breakover correct-flares will disappear.
    Great tip about checking for flares.. I had forgotten that and I think that is why I kept not taking that outside wall back far enough.

    Unfortunately the birthday boy is sore this afternoon and walking on the hard driveway was not do-able as there is some gravel there. He was not amused. So I longed him a little on the hard-as-a-rock drylot. It's the best surface I have, I think. He did not think that was funny, at all.



  19. #59
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    id your horse lame eq i noticed sore spots at toe and to the side of sole
    thinks hes briused it or possiable puss in toe -- look at the piccy with foot up --- its to pink in to and just along left side of frog tiny bit pink there to

    think hes stepped on a few roungh patches if hes sore thats the place-- give him a hose and srub of foot and poultice it --brring the bruise out cause i can see it --



  20. #60
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer
    No roads other than gravel. I REALLY live in the country!

    What now?
    Boots. With added padding if need be.

    I walked a very flat footed, foundered TB with bruising on the road with boots, added padding made from those thick knee protectors they sell for people to kneel on when working in the yard. After two weeks I was able to leave the boots off on the road. So I think those would give enough protection on gravel. You can also add mousepads as padding.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



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