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  1. #1
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    Default What Farriers think of "Barefoot Trimmers"

    Last edited by Auventera Two; Jan. 25, 2007 at 03:56 PM.



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Simple

    Yeah, well, the fact that my horse is dead freaking lame for 2 weeks after the traditional farrier trims her and leaves her barefoot ought to tell them SOMETHING.
    That is a problem with THAT farrier's trim. It's not because it's a farrier trimming a bare foot. It's because THAT farrier doesn't know how to trim a foot properly to begin with, or at least not properly for it to be un-shod. You can almost as easily find a trimmer who can't trim a foot properly. I say "almost" only because farrier outnumber trimmers by a lot, so finding trimmers is harder to start with.
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  3. #3
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    Two Simple

    thanks for pointing those two threads out. I have been cracking up over lunch. They are really dispising all of us barefooters, aren't they.

    Too bad most of them don't want to actually be open minded enough to learn (or at least research) the difference.

    I have a former race track farrier coming to watch my barefoot trimmer this weekend when she trims all of the TB's at my barn, as well as some other breeds.
    He will tell you straight up, that after doing all those shoes on the track, he has learned one thing: Shoes are causing a lot of harm (and he didn't say it that nicely).

    I love this guy: even though he is no longer in the profession, he wants to learn from a professional BF trimmer so he can take care of his big herd at home the balanced way, mustang roll and all.

    Oh BTW, he doesn't look like the granola type either.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Simple
    In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be. I've even had farriers tell me not to ride for a few days because "she'll be sore."
    I think this is the sign of a bad farrier. Good "traditional" (I hate that term) farriers would not do this.

    And FWIW, many Strasser barefoot trimmers believe that it's normal and fine for a horse to be sore after a trim.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capriole
    I think this is the sign of a bad farrier. Good "traditional" (I hate that term) farriers would not do this.

    And FWIW, many Strasser barefoot trimmers believe that it's normal and fine for a horse to be sore after a trim.
    I don't think anyone thinks it's fine and normal for a horse to be sore for a few days after a trim, either "traditional" farriers, or Strasser trimmers.

    TwoSimple, all of your topics have been gone round and round, here and elsewhere. You don't need to bring it up here every time you learn something new about the ongoing controversy, the pricing structures, etc.

    Naturally, a group of people that is helping to educate the customer, is not a good thing for the farrier. The curtain has been pulled aside.
    Last edited by Lookout; Apr. 5, 2006 at 02:26 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookout
    I don't think anyone thinks it's fine and normal for a horse to be sore for a few days after a trim, either "traditional" farriers, or Strasser trimmers.
    *Some* do. Some traditional farriers (not all), some Strasser trimmers (not all). Sounds like you and I agree this is not the goal.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capriole
    *Some* do. some Strasser trimmers (not all).
    No. They don't.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookout
    No. They don't.
    I take it that by this you mean that if a "SHP" says that it's normal and ok to be sore after a trim, then they are not following the true intention of the Strasser method?

    I think it all comes down to this - those who cannot trim properly come to expect a horse will be sore for a few days (at least) after a trim and will never do anything to make sure it doesn't keep happening. Those who can trim properly (farrier OR trimmer) will come to expect that it's NOT normal for this to happen, and if it does, will bend over backwards to figure out why and not make that mistake again -- regardless of what method that person follows.
    ______________________________
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookout
    No. They don't.
    Really? One told me this in person, and I was *pretty* sure I had read it several times online. I may of course be wrong. I am not saying it's something that Strasser teaches, but it's something some people who say they follow her model have said.
    Last edited by Capriole; Apr. 5, 2006 at 02:27 PM.



  10. #10
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    I asked my farrier about 'natural trimming' last year, and he knowledgeably listed pros and cons of both.... and then stated his opinion. It made sense, and we both think alike.

    He respectfully declined to trim my horse that way tho

    I agree
    Carol and Princess Dewi

    **~Doccer'sDressage~**



  11. #11
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    Default It sounds like this may have already been beaten to death...

    but what is the difference between a "normal" trim and a "barefoot" trim? My horses are all barefoot for the winter, and yes they were all ouchy the first week to 10 days after I pulled their shoes (this is the first year I've done this, by the way).
    I"m so happy with all of them barefoot (waaaaay cheap farrier bills, no stressing over lost shoes, no discernable difference in the way they move or jump, no loss of traction jumping, etc) that I was not going to rush to put all their shoes back on this spring.
    My guys all appear to be doing just fine now, and their hooves are tough and hard and I can hack them on varied terrain barefoot and they are fine.

    But now I would like to know if this barefoot trim is something I should look into?



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Simple
    My gosh, how am I supposed to know what's been discussed over the years on this forum?
    You could try checking the date on the thread you posted. And running a couple searches.
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  13. #13
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    That site is run by some really anti-barefoot farriers. In January they actually asked all non-shoeing members not to participate any further in the discussions. Guess they couldn't handle a different point of view. They sent out a mass-email to all members which basically said this is a shoers board. Too bad because there were some great openminded discussions there. It used to be one of my daily favorites, and now I've deleted it from my Favorites list.

    You've got to consider the source. You have some regular members who are probably great shoers but who (1) don't understand the benefits of barefoot (2) don't know how to do a barefoot trim (3) feel threatened by this new idea (4) will lose income because they can no longer charge over $100 a horse. These people were taught the mindset "any horse can do well with shoes".

    If you want to look into barefoot trims, pick up the Pete Ramey book. You don't have to agree with everything he says but he raises alot of great points and explains some things the shoe-only farriers could not.

    A "regular" trim is probably referring to prepping the foot for a shoe. This is NOT the same as a barefoot trim. A farrier who preps for a shoe may take off more sole, may trim the frog back more, may not roll the edges. It's when the shoeing farriers trim alot of sole off (as if they were prepping for shoes), give the unshod horse back to the owner, and the horse is ouchy for awhile because horse doesnt have that sole layer there to protect his foot... and then the old-school farrier says "see this proves he needs shoes". Duh!

    I am admittedly on the side of the barefooters. It hasn't made any of my horses unsound, they're not ouchy on gravel, and my main riding horse is unshod all year and is never lame. Not to mention it's cheaper, faster, and IMHO better for the horse. It may not be right for 100% of horses in 100% of situations, but it's great for many horses out there.



  14. #14
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    Default Horseshoes.com

    Hey TwoSimple,

    There has been an ongoing argument between what the farriers who post to horseshoes.com call "barefooters" and farriers. A number of barefoot websites claim that shoes are evil. So, by extension, farriers who apply them must also be evil. The implication is that farriers neither know nor care what a healthy hoof is. So, they are naturally defensive. I would be, too, if I were a shoer. A number of barefoot sites also print photos of bad shoeing jobs and make it seem like all farriers do such low quality work and that the shoes themselves are the problem, not improper trims or improper hoof care by the owner.

    A few months ago the farriers on horseshoes.com got tired of all the arguments between the "barefooters (at any cost)" and the farriers, and they told all of us trimmers that we are no longer alowed to post on the farrier's section--we have to post to the owners section or the "barefoot only" forum.

    There appears to be a perception among farriers that barefooters are willing to lame a horse in order for it to go barefoot. Many also believe that making the horse as comfortable as possible ASAP is the right thing to do. These farriers are dedicated to the art and science of hoof care, and they have a different philosopy on how to acheive hoof health than a lot of barefoot trimmers.

    I also believe that they encounter a lot of barefoot fanatics who question their motives and their work--much like people who are stuck on one training style try to convert everybody to their way of doing things.

    I'm not saying they should bash barefooters. It is childish and doesn't make them look too good. I think they are mostly vents. They also want to see research to back up the claims of barefooters, but nobody can seem to agree on what constitutes a "valid" study. You'll also see fights break out between different shoeing philosophy (e.g. natural balance vs. traditional). I don't really get offended by their statements agains barefooters because I'm not a "barefoot at any cost" kind of person. I don't believe in absolutes and try to keep an open mind about what is out there. Now I only read the site when I've got a challenging horse to trim or find a horse that may need shoes and need to know how to advise the owner. So far I've only had to recommend shoes for one horse that is too flat footed to event without shoes. It annoys me when a farrier says that the trim is only 5% of the job. Trimming may take a small percentage of the time, but it is the most important part of the work!

    I see a number of the farriers on the site know the difference between a pasture trim vs. a rolled trim. They are more likely to refer to it as beveling the edge rather than giving it a mustang roll. They are a prickly lot over there. I think you've noticed that a lot of barefooters who post to this site are prickly, too.

    There are a lot of strong personalities on horseshoes.com. If you can stand the arguments, there are a lot of great, technical discussions on the site.



  15. #15
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    I guess I would have to agree with the Farriers who made the comments on pricing. I have seen the Trimmers come out and give the spiel, do the "magic trim" whatever the method they espouse and charge the big money for it. Sometimes sound afterwards, sometimes not. The Not is explained as horse needing to get comfortable with having newly "correct" angles and proper trim now. Horse was trimmed completely wrong before the Trimmer saved him!

    I see the good Farrier come out to do the same trim without special talk, effects, charge his regular rate, horse goes off sound.

    If I take the horses and measure angles, lengths of hoof, check the sole, the trim may be exactly the same. I guess the extra money goes for special effects. Owner BELIEVES now, willing to pay for it. Depending on how the "Special" trim is presented, each one is better than that other one. Owners are willing to believe good advertising, promotions of each type specialist.

    I am into that Integral Hoof Mass trim myself. I want my horse having enough hoof left to go ride barefooted immediately after he is trimmed. Enough hoof to fit his body size. I EXPECT my horse to be usable EVERYTIME he is trimmed or shod. I SHOULD be able to ride him as quick as Farrier is done putting the last leg down, and often do. He is sound after pulling shoes, changed to barefooted. This is ALL my horses, not just one special animal with feet of iron.
    There should NEVER be any "Getting used to his trim, Sore a few days" garbage when my horses are worked on. It is TOTAL hogwash! You need to change something in the work done, raise your expectations of Farrier or trimmer.

    You as an owner should tell Farrier that horse was sore last time, needs to leave more sole or slightly longer hoof wall to protect the coffin bone!! Accepting horse being sore each time is being the poor caretaker!

    If you as owners want to pay for a Trimmer, with initials, get the show, that is fine. Just finish educating yourself about hoof care and how to do it well. Naming the trim doesn't make it wonderful. How the trimmer or Farrier applies the knowledge is important.
    Know when hoof is trimmed crooked, quit having "CORRECTIVE" leg work done on horses. Accept that some horses can't go barefoot, while other really don't need shoes. This can change if ground they live on changes, or if horse is going to work hard, needs hoof help.

    The endless agonizing and carrying on over terminology is what is funny to the foot guys. The the willingness of owner to shell out bucks for a Named trim when owners cry about prices on shoes or less expensive trims is amazing.
    Good Farriers make money regardless of what trim is called. Trims are faster, cheaper with no materials to use, more profitable in time and money. Most have more work than they can manage, don't "have to" be putting shoes on everyone. They have checked out the "expert, initialed Trimmers" work on horses. They are willing to believe, just not seeing anything special being done for all they hype. Lots of crappy work, rough edges, unbalanced hoof work. Pairs of feet should match unless one is damaged for a reason. Trimmers don't even do that. Kind of looks like a case of the "Emperor's Wonderful New Clothes". Owners don't want to be left off the bandwagon of Barefoot Greatness.

    I have been checking the "New Stuff" out over time, don't see a lot to be that excited about except the pricing. I learned good hoof trimming way back in 4-H, not that hard. We all had barefoot horses, used them hard. Just have to be willing to do it correctly, like any skill, even if trimmer is tired!



  16. #16
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    Paying $85 for a "Special High Performance Barefoot Trim" is no worse than paying $300 for a set of regular keg shoes with a few clips, so it does go both ways

    Two Simple - it's like this: In the beginning, you do get upset with all of this. But the more you learn and the more you are sure of what YOU believe in and what YOU know, the more you just have to not get so in a tizzy about it all. I pretty much refuse to read much on horseshoes.com, and really refuse to read a few posters there, as they get my stomach all in a knot and I just want to punch them due to their high and mighty and holier than thou I am great you stink attitudes and what not, so I just don't. As long as there are egos and attitudes, whether it's barefoot vs shod or treeless vs treed or bitted vs bitless or whatever, there will be conflict like this. Read it if you like, hopefully learn something from it, and smile and shake your head
    ______________________________
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  17. #17
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    There are Good Farriers and Good Barefoot trimmers. And the good farriers CAN trim a hoof correctly for that horse. And there are bad farriers and there are bad barefoot trimmers. every horse has a different need. some go great barefoot, some do not. i wish everyone would just get over the argument that one is better than the other. you cannot force any one method on every horse. it doesn't work that way. can't we all just agree that we want the best for our individual horse and that we will do what we can to ensure that?



  18. #18
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    Goodhors, I think you hit the nail on the head. There is a lot of truth in the gripes going both directions. We seem to ingnore bias that we agree with and react to the stuff that we disagree with. Keeping an open mind helps one not to be so reactive.

    The only argument I ever got into on horseshoes.com was when one of the main posters beat a poor guy up for disagreeing with him. He sees himself as some kind of verbal superman when he is basically a playground bully. So the argument was about his lack of manners, not trimming or shoeing. Another farrier, who I know for a fact has researched a number of barefoot methods, joined with me in the argument. It would have been fun if it had taken place in a bar over a pitcher of beer.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB
    I take it that by this you mean that if a "SHP" says that it's normal and ok to be sore after a trim, then they are not following the true intention of the Strasser method?

    I think it all comes down to this - those who cannot trim properly come to expect a horse will be sore for a few days (at least) after a trim and will never do anything to make sure it doesn't keep happening. Those who can trim properly (farrier OR trimmer) will come to expect that it's NOT normal for this to happen, and if it does, will bend over backwards to figure out why and not make that mistake again -- regardless of what method that person follows.
    It means, someone, either the giver or receiver of the information, isn't getting it. I fully agree with your conclusions.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleent
    There are Good Farriers and Good Barefoot trimmers. And the good farriers CAN trim a hoof correctly for that horse. And there are bad farriers and there are bad barefoot trimmers. every horse has a different need. some go great barefoot, some do not. i wish everyone would just get over the argument that one is better than the other. you cannot force any one method on every horse. it doesn't work that way. can't we all just agree that we want the best for our individual horse and that we will do what we can to ensure that?
    Agreed!

    And really, this whole thread has turned into a Chevy vs Ford argument. Or really, started as one. My farrier that comes to my farm shoes only one horse, and that's mine with the chronic founder (fronts only). Everyone else is barefoot and just fine. I have never personally met a farrier that screamed all horses need shoes. Furthermore, all the examples of "corrective shoeing" that I've seen on sites damning corrective shoers were horrible examples; no farrier nor vet I know of or have talked to would say, "yeah, that's what I like! Heels at least 6 inches tall!" Insanity. Ok, maybe for certain breed shows such as gaited horses that have the huge pads, but that's a whole 'nother thread that has also been beating a dead horse.



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