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  1. #41
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    Finzean, are you sure they were cribbing collars and not throat sweats? Most ASB show horses when being prepped for a show will wear a throat sweat, usually flannel lined.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


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  2. #42
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    The original horse is quite lovely, chains or no chains. I'd guess he goes back to Stonewall somewhere in his bloodlines.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    That baby has either chains or stretchies on I can't tell. But there is something on those feet.

    ETA Chains on the front for sure.
    Yeah, looks like light chains. Kinda like a dog's choke chain weight. Not unusual.

    Some of the reason I got out of Saddlebreds was because I got sick of watching people turn 'em into "poodles". Tail nicking and then living in a tail set. Neck sweating. Tongue tieing. Fake tails. Padding shoes. Oh yeah, real natural.

    I thought dressage. Now that's natural. Good classical training for the horse. It's morphing into Saddlebreds more everyday. It's getting scary.


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  4. #44
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    Maybe they should run the gaited ones across a board like they do Pasos. It's really easy to tell which ones can't gait when they are on a sounding board.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I watch the WGCH live streamed every year. A few years ago I was also in a chat with others watching the WGC 5-gaited class. There was a horse who appeared brilliant huge trot with reach, as well as at the rack. He was consistently throwing a front foot. It was so blatantly noticeable to me he looked lame. I commented about it on the chat. They thought I was crazy. They could only see was how high he could go, quality of gait (squareness) didn't matter. It is something I think is far more important than how high. BTW he won the class unanimously.

    If they aren't square something is amiss, it could as benign as muscle soreness to extreme pain, depends on the horse.
    You are what you dare.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    I thought dressage. Now that's natural. Good classical training for the horse. It's morphing into Saddlebreds more everyday. It's getting scary.
    As soon as you stable a horse and train it to be ridden, Natural goes right out the window. Any discipline, showing or racing, at it's highest level, will put restrictions on a horse's life similar to conditions the show Saddlebreds live under.


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  6. #46
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    Well, of course, but is it necessary to use minor surgery or add appliances to the horse to train him to be ridden?


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  7. #47
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    Name me a discipline that does not.


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  8. #48
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    Lets be real here people, name one discipline that isn't known for some sort of "gadget". Hunters routinely school in draw reins, jumpers with figure eight nosebands, eventers with running martingales, dressage horses always seem to have flashes on, barrel racers with harsh bits, peanut roller western pleasure. The point is that every discipline can be singled out as using "gadgets" to get their horses to act a certain way. I'm not in any way saying it's the same as the extremes done in saddlebred showing or *shudder* big lick horses, but yes, the gadgets are there in EVERY discipline.

    Traditional, classical training is being replaced all the time with fancy gadgets to get horses to move/act a certain way, and no one can deny that. Of course I'm not accusing anyone here of stooping to these practices, but it is alive and well in nearly every discipline. So personally, if the worst someone does it put light chains on an ASB, I'm not going to say anything, because in the long run those light chains aren't causing damage, unlike some modern dressage practices.


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAcres View Post
    I'm not in any way saying it's the same as the extremes done in saddlebred showing
    Saddlebreds are "extreme"ly different looking right out of the box. I challenge anyone ignorant to the breed to seperate the enhanced aspects from the "natural" aspects on any given sample of show horses.

    Sort of like CA ASB's experience with her ASB western pleasure mare when the Animal Communicator said "she doesn't mid wearing a tail set." Um yeah, that's because she doesn't. Just because it is an ASB don't assume it's tail has been nicked and it has been trained with gadgets. Even some of the stake horses are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAcres View Post
    So personally, if the worst someone does it put light chains on an ASB, I'm not going to say anything, because in the long run those light chains aren't causing damage, unlike some modern dressage practices.
    Amen


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  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=SmartAlex;6767912]Saddlebreds are "extreme"ly different looking right out of the box. I challenge anyone ignorant to the breed to seperate the enhanced aspects from the "natural" aspects on any given sample of show horses.

    Sort of like CA ASB's experience with her ASB western pleasure mare when the Animal Communicator said "she doesn't mid wearing a tail set." Um yeah, that's because she doesn't. Just because it is an ASB don't assume it's tail has been nicked and it has been trained with gadgets. Even some of the stake horses are not.



    Amen[/QUOTE]

    My point exactly.



  11. #51
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    Fourmares, he has one tiny nick specifically to Stonewall King 7 generations back on the top side of his stud line. However, he's pretty strongly bred with multiple ties to Bourbon King (even closer in the pedigree, interestingly), so that is probably what you are seeing.



  12. #52
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    Saddlebreds do exhibit much of their potential at a very young age.
    What direction that may take is up to the trainer. Praising a horse for raising it’s feet high and flexing it’s joints is an important part of recovering the motion displayed by youngsters - in their later careers.

    You need to have a behavior offered by the horse before you can reward it.
    Teaching muscle memory (lift high, stay square in timing) is the reason for using straps and chains. Even rubber bells and protective boots will elicit a similar or even more exaggerated reaction from most SB young horses.

    You might as well say wearing a halter will make a horse carry it’s head high because that heavy thing at the end of their long neck on their sensitive poll and face is so irritating.

    Remember the stereotype:
    Saddlebreds are not athletic, and do not work over their hind ends.
    Saddlebreds must be worked on level, perfect ground.
    They are hothouse flowers that can’t go outside.
    Horses do not carry their heads that high naturally.
    Saddlebreds can’t jump.

    Some videos to enjoy.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alGTT38Lwsg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BFMb-0OdM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo9goworc6A
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixbw08b39-4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvti7pkZQU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpi5zae2q10
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLbTR2I5kO8

    p.s. I always love watching the 2 year-old video of Out of the Ashes. Some might say there are better videos of Totilas ridden by Gal than his more recent rider.
    'Extraordinary' is a fleeting moment in time often; we aspire to the stars and seldom even get to the clouds.


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  13. #53
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    Why, oh why must every single SS or Saddlebred thread be turned into a bickering mess of people shoving their opinions on each other? Saddlebreds are not everyone's cup of tea, but is it absolutely necessary for those people to say how wrong the training methods are or how they think they look unnatural or whatever else? There are flaws in all disciplines and in all breeds... so why are people SO quick to point out the flaws in SS?

    NOT every single gait flaw means pain. To whoever said this(I don't remember who it was), I have a horse that has a club foot in front. He also swings out his right front because of this, just like AMWRider also mentioned. He does not have any pain anywhere. It is simply how he is built and any corrective shoeing we have tried only exaggerates it even more. Some horses are just built that way, doesn't necessarily mean pain every time.

    OP-I think the horse you posted is absolutely lovely. The barn I take lessons at has a Ro&Me horse and he is just as nice.

    Dbald: I always love looking at dcmgypsy's videos. She always has amazing foals. I've been eyeing I am Johnny Be Good ever since he was a foal. I really like him.
    Last edited by NBChoice; Jan. 7, 2013 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Added something
    http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
    The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
    Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
    Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding


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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBChoice View Post
    Why, oh why must every single SS or Saddlebred thread be turned into a bickering mess of people shoving their opinions on each other? Saddlebreds are not everyone's cup of tea, but is it absolutely necessary for those people to say how wrong the training methods are or how they think they look unnatural or whatever else? There are flaws in all disciplines and in all breeds... so why are people SO quick to point out the flaws in SS?

    NOT every single gait flaw means pain. To whoever said this(I don't remember who it was), I have a horse that has a club foot in front. He also swings out his right front because of this, just like AMWRider also mentioned. He does not have any pain anywhere. It is simply how he is built and any corrective shoeing we have tried only exaggerates it even more. Some horses are just built that way, doesn't necessarily mean pain every time.

    OP-I think the horse you posted is absolutely lovely. The barn I take lessons at has a Ro&Me horse and he is just as nice.

    Dbald: I always love looking at dcmgypsy's videos. She always has amazing foals. I've been eyeing I am Johnny Be Good ever since he was a foal. I really like him.
    Hey if it's club foot fine. BUT it should never, ever, ever win a WGC title if it has one. Sorry.



  15. #55
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    I agree... I never said that it should win a WGC title. I don't think it should either. I was just stating that it does not always mean pain...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
    The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
    Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
    Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    Praising a horse for raising it’s feet high and flexing it’s joints is an important part of recovering the motion displayed by youngsters - in their later careers.

    You need to have a behavior offered by the horse before you can reward it.
    Teaching muscle memory (lift high, stay square in timing) is the reason for using straps and chains. Even rubber bells and protective boots will elicit a similar or even more exaggerated reaction from most SB young horses.
    Well put. That original video shows a typical "play session" for a youngster. You put some tickly chains on the colt for him to try to step out of, get out some "entertainment" like a plastic bag, and you let the colt show off. He trots around as high as he can, snorting and blowing, and the people watching whistle and clap and yell "yeah boy!". The horse gets an adrenaline rush and thinks "hey, this is FUN! The higher I trot and the bigger show I put on, the happier my people are."

    They are not afraid, they are not in pain. It might be a foreign idea to you all, but don't knock it till you try it. You know how your pasture horses act when they've been cooped up for a day and you turn them all out in the snow and they run around like fire breathing wild things? THAT's how we want our show horses to act. Its a conditioned response.


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    Well put. That original video shows a typical "play session" for a youngster. You put some tickly chains on the colt for him to try to step out of, get out some "entertainment" like a plastic bag, and you let the colt show off. He trots around as high as he can, snorting and blowing, and the people watching whistle and clap and yell "yeah boy!". The horse gets an adrenaline rush and thinks "hey, this is FUN! The higher I trot and the bigger show I put on, the happier my people are."
    This is a great explanation. Even the older horses like to put on a show- my older CP horse, who comes out of her stall like an old plow horse, snaps to attention when I turn her loose or send her to the end of a lunge line- she'll snort and blow and that tail goes right up over her back like a colt as she starts waving those legs. The more I "yeah boy" the bigger and prouder she gets of herself. She does the same plow horse thing under saddle, too- that is until I pick up the reins properly and put a little leg into her then she's all show! Heck, even the broodmares get a kick out of someone making some noise. Saddlebreds love to show off and love to make their people happy.


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  18. #58
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    In my experience, the ones that fling their feet are somehow unbalanced - in conformation, in shoeing, in riding, in muscling, or just where they are in the ring. I see a young horse whose angles aren't exactly the same and isn't perfectly balanced around corners. It's going to be harder for a horse to have the same elevation on a corner that he does on the straightaway.

    There are lots of gadgets in the pleasure breeds. More than you can imagine. Some trainers like running martingale + draws, some prefer just the martingale, some like overchecks, some lunge in jockeys... and that's just the head. If it's done right (showing the horse where it should be, not forcing it to be there) it doesn't hurt. However, there are a lot of ways to go wrong and a lot of chances to be abusive, intentionally or unintentionally. It's difficult to keep the spark and fire in a horse when it's hurting, though, and many of the horses at the very top have been treated like royalty their whole lives.

    What I see in the original video is a young horse with a keg shoe and maybe a thin pad and/or a toe weight. He isn't built up, and the motion he's showing at liberty is really, really fantastic - enhanced or not. He has had chains or rings on him in front and back. That's a given. His trainers probably felt that his knee was fine (it's actually better than fine), but his hocks needed some work, and pulled the weights off the front but left them on in back.

    In the original video, he's three and under saddle, he's lost some of the extravagant movement from the first video. Part of that is balance. Part of that is muscle. Part of that is structure. And part of that might be how he's being ridden. The video is an audition for the saddleseat equitation team. The rider is probably more concerned with her position than with her horse's. In addition, she's probably not a professional.

    In my opinion, this is a horse who has been enhanced, but certainly not in an abusive way or in a way he doesn't like. He's wearing his ears the whole time and it's clear he hasn't lost any attitude from video 1 to video 2.


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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltatime View Post
    In my experience, the ones that fling their feet are somehow unbalanced - in conformation, in shoeing, in riding, in muscling, or just where they are in the ring. I see a young horse whose angles aren't exactly the same and isn't perfectly balanced around corners. It's going to be harder for a horse to have the same elevation on a corner that he does on the straightaway.

    There are lots of gadgets in the pleasure breeds. More than you can imagine. Some trainers like running martingale + draws, some prefer just the martingale, some like overchecks, some lunge in jockeys... and that's just the head. If it's done right (showing the horse where it should be, not forcing it to be there) it doesn't hurt. However, there are a lot of ways to go wrong and a lot of chances to be abusive, intentionally or unintentionally. It's difficult to keep the spark and fire in a horse when it's hurting, though, and many of the horses at the very top have been treated like royalty their whole lives.

    What I see in the original video is a young horse with a keg shoe and maybe a thin pad and/or a toe weight. He isn't built up, and the motion he's showing at liberty is really, really fantastic - enhanced or not. He has had chains or rings on him in front and back. That's a given. His trainers probably felt that his knee was fine (it's actually better than fine), but his hocks needed some work, and pulled the weights off the front but left them on in back.

    In the original video, he's three and under saddle, he's lost some of the extravagant movement from the first video. Part of that is balance. Part of that is muscle. Part of that is structure. And part of that might be how he's being ridden. The video is an audition for the saddleseat equitation team. The rider is probably more concerned with her position than with her horse's. In addition, she's probably not a professional.

    In my opinion, this is a horse who has been enhanced, but certainly not in an abusive way or in a way he doesn't like. He's wearing his ears the whole time and it's clear he hasn't lost any attitude from video 1 to video 2.

    A three year old.
    Ridden by a junior.
    Note that 3 yr olds also shed teeth in addition to learning their job under a rider.

    Why people expect a 'finished top level performance' from a young horse early in his career -when that career is to be a platform for an EQ rider, not a top performance horse, I can't say.

    It is difficult to 're-capture' the 'perfect moment' even for pros and horses consistently worked for years.
    That doesn't in any way diminish the way that two year old moves and my joy in seeing it.

    Dressage horses are often presented in non-competitive venues with boots and bandages - is that enhanced, too?
    I am just careful with words, only since some interpret that as 'going somewhere one shouldn't go' and I have no problem with either presentation where coercion and pain are absent. A happy horse is proof of the training.


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  20. #60
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    You know every time these things get brought up, the ASB peeps, and I am one, I have 6 staring at the house right now as I type, get all up in arms when others point out the weird crap. It IS weird. No amount of explaining the why's, is gonna change that fact. The training itself is detrimental for the horse to be useful anywhere but inside an arena.

    In the show ring they are trying to replicate the look when something scares/spooks them. The training follows parameters to get that response as much and as consistently as possible. If they don't "train" in that manner they are toast or cheval actually. If they simply DO NOT wear their ears they are history. They must at least appear to be having fun. Blech! I just hate it now and think it's all just the stupidest thing. I can go air up my horses anytime I want, have a bit of eye candy without all the crap. They are pasture kept so I don't even need to stall them to see it.

    I am totally against stalling 24/7, which they must be to get the desired affect not to mention the shoeing.
    Now I'm sure the ASB peeps will be piling in saying I don't know what I'm talking about, sadly I do. It's just plain shitty horse keeping all the way around. I wouldn't be so grumpy about it if they would even just leg them up on a hard surface or pull all shoes for hoof health, but they mostly can't because the concussive forces could mechanically founder them. Pulling their pads would render them lame because their soles are too soft to tolerate anything. The rehab on consistently padded and stalled horses feet is a about a year. Even then you will be lucky if the horse is useful for life on the outside.

    FWIW I can name a ton of other breeds, disciplines and their bad practices but I don't own them except one TWH. Don't even get me started...


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