[animaldoc]

I wouldn't want inectable dormosedan around my place, either. The fact that it comes in an oral formulation is the ONLY reason I'd consider using it, and the level of caution is not less because it's "easy" but I do feel that an accident is less likely to happen.

The oral formulation isn't really much different than the injectable - you can use the injectable transmucosally, actually - and most of the people I know don't use appropriate precautions (ie. gloves) while giving it. I just worry that with putting this out, and making it in a form that is easy to dispense (rather than having to be administered by a DVM), Pfizer has made people think it's safer, when it's actually not. The drug can be absorbed through skin (poorly) and through mucous membranes (easily), so I always wince when I see people administering it without gloves.

And Gahzzu - I'm with you. Horse needs sedation, *I* want to give it....but then I don't dispense injectable *anything* except in extremely rare circumstances. :-)

[deltawave]

My vet gave me a stern lecture about the gel. I don't have any on hand right now but sure did like having it when I was rehabbing a scrappy, clever horse. I continue to rely on good old oral ace powder for 99% of my "sedation needs". Any time I can NOT use a needle, I'm happy.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Live and learn! Thanks for the education, delta, Ghazzu, & animaldoc!

So anyone know if the recreational use is along the lines of auto-asphyxiation for pleasure, or something else?
Which makes me remember talking with a gay male friend who spent a portion of the 80's clubbing pretty stereotypically. He mentioned that on ketamine, the world turned cubist, and he hovered above it watching people dance. Think our ponies do that in surgery on ketamine??

[end curiosity hijack]

[animaldoc]

So anyone know if the recreational use is along the lines of auto-asphyxiation for pleasure, or something else?

I don't know WHY you would try it recreationally, but hey, these idiots will try anything...and I had heard that it's killing people recently because they're using it to cut illegal drugs.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/i.../t-365184.html

Which makes me remember talking with a gay male friend who spent a portion of the 80's clubbing pretty stereotypically. He mentioned that on ketamine, the world turned cubist, and he hovered above it watching people dance. Think our ponies do that in surgery on ketamine??

I think we have to be careful drawing conclusions between species. They try and avoid ketamine in humans because of post-anesthesia hallucinations, and other unpleasant side effects. While cats sometimes wake up a bit wonky (with higher doses of ketamine alone) and *seem* like they're hallucinating or something (purple elephants, orange dragons?) we don't usually see those responses in other species. I only say it this way because there are those (and some of them are DVMs) who say "they don't use ketamine in human anesthesia, we shouldn't use it in animals either" and I don't think that's true at all. Too many species differences to throw it out all together IMO.

[deltawave]

Ketamine is used in anesthesia all the time in humans. I had a rather spectacular ketamine hallucination during my knee surgery. Tents, deserts, weird sunsets . . . I believe it is used on children fairly regularly and they have no such reaction to it. It is VERY difficult to extrapolate between age groups, much less species! I was stunned to hear that guaifenesin was used (is it still?) for sedation in large animals, when we typically think of it as "only robitussin".

[Ghazzu]

I heard a really scary story about xylazine from a colleague.
Seems he dispensed a bottle to a rancher client who had a crop of yearlings to get ready (trimmed and clipped) for the sales.
He trusted the guy to handle it properly.
Rancher came home to find his teenage son had taken the contents of the bottle and poured it on a baking sheet to dry in the oven so he could snort the powder.
Fortunately the father arrived before the kid tried it...

[deltawave]

Jesus. I was afraid to take a benadryl when I was a teenager!

[dressurpferd01]

I heard a really scary story about xylazine from a colleague.
Seems he dispensed a bottle to a rancher client who had a crop of yearlings to get ready (trimmed and clipped) for the sales.
He trusted the guy to handle it properly.
Rancher came home to find his teenage son had taken the contents of the bottle and poured it on a baking sheet to dry in the oven so he could snort the powder.
Fortunately the father arrived before the kid tried it...

What were we just saying about Darwin and how he will have his way?

[Karosel]

I guess I really dodged a bullet when I was unpackaging a supply order with a broken bottle of xylazine at a vet clinic I worked at as a teen. I didn't realize it was broken until I had already grabbed the bottle and got the liquid all over my hand. I rinsed it off quickly and I guess didn't have any cuts on my hand at the time.

I had no idea xylazine was this risky.

[Discobold]

I also don't like to give IV injections to horses without a very, very compelling need, again this is MY preference even though I'm pretty handy with needles and not afraid of large blood vessels in general. If there are any oral options I'm going to prefer those, then IM, then IV as a last resort.

I also don't like to give IV injections. Rather than using the acepromazine powder, though, I've given the injectable orally, squirting it in the horse's mouth at double the IV dose, e.g. if the horse would get 1 cc IV, I would give 2 cc's. I used it when re-starting a mare that had been on complete stall rest for 5 months. It worked beautifully, and I was able to taper off fairly quickly instead of having to increase the dose once the horse was getting worked regularly under saddle.

Horse drugs scare me. When I was younger, one of the local vets committed suicide with a horse tranquilizer

[Ghazzu]

What were we just saying about Darwin and how he will have his way?

Maybe so, but I have no doubt that if such a thing were to happen, the regulatory authorities as well as the personal injury lawyers would be looking in the direction of the licensed professional who dispensed the drug...

[deltawave]

Yes, I've used injectable ace orally as well.

IME Darwin works poorly as these idiotic teenagers live JUST long enough to spawn.

[blueribbonpanel]

I have used both, given orally (horse is deathly afraid of needles). For a horse about l5 hands. I was using 3 cc's ace, ORALLY,, but vet said he preferred I use xylazine, 2 ccs (Orally) which needed to be put under tongue (NOT easy).
I don't see a whole lot of sedation, but am certainly afraid of using more. Horse has been stall bound for 4 months and definitely needs "something".

What is the difference between the 2, and which one would be safer to use on a daily basis. Handwalking for 20 minutes right now, and need to up that soon. Any thought? Oh, also using one scoop reserpine, which I don't see having much affect either.

[Justmyluck]

Umm how about you call your veterinarian.

[LDavis104]

I have used both, given orally (horse is deathly afraid of needles). For a horse about l5 hands. I was using 3 cc's ace, ORALLY,, but vet said he preferred I use xylazine, 2 ccs (Orally) which needed to be put under tongue (NOT easy).
I don't see a whole lot of sedation, but am certainly afraid of using more. Horse has been stall bound for 4 months and definitely needs "something".

What is the difference between the 2, and which one would be safer to use on a daily basis. Handwalking for 20 minutes right now, and need to up that soon. Any thought? Oh, also using one scoop reserpine, which I don't see having much affect either.

Can't tell you the difference in how well Ace and xylazine work as its been about 3-4 years since I used ace on this horse and can't really remember how quiet he was on it. I did have to increase his dose of xylazine to 5cc IM (15.3, 1250-1300 lbs) and we haven't had any bucking/rearing explosions since, but he's not dopey either... Some days I still only walk because he feels like he would not behave if we did anything more. It somehow just cuts the desire to rear and buck his days away and some days he actually feels like his normal, relaxed, safe self. As far as the reserpine, mine is on 2 of those little scoops (not sure of the scoop size is universal?) per day, 1 AM and 1 PM... Maybe ask if you can increase the dose?

[animaldoc]

vet said he preferred I use xylazine, 2 ccs (Orally) which needed to be put under tongue (NOT easy).

IMO 2 mLs xylazine given transmucosally isn't going to do much. 2 mLs detomidine given transmucosally (in the cheek is fine) would, but you need to give it about 40 minutes.

They can override the effects of ALL of these sedatives if they are worked up enough.

[blueribbonpanel]

Well giving it in the cheeck sounds much easier than trying to get it UNDER the tongue. As far as talking to the vet, I did do that, but I've found that if you talk to 2 (or 5!!!) different vets, they will all have different opinions and ideas on everything. Asking people on this forum for their experiences gives me some good input, and supplements the info I've received from the vets.

[merrygoround]

Anything possibly given orally here is. I have used oral reserpine, the dosage had to be higher than we thought. Oral ace, with the timing monitored closely. The ace was the injectable kind, and oral banamine, also the injectable kind, but not for sedation or calming.

After years of giving injections, I avoid it when I can.

For rehabbing, I found using reserpine as a steady daily dose, along with ace 2 cc under the tongue, worked reasonably well. At least we're all still alive with only a few bruises.