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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    I personally would rather see funds and efforts directed more at either a Le Lion type of competition
    Well, here you go:

    The USEA Young Event Horse Committee is delighted to announce the Holekamp/Turner Young Event Horse Lion d’Angers Prize and Grant. This grant will award the highest scorer of the USEA Young Event Horse 5-year-old Championships with a cash prize that will enable them to travel to the FEI World Young Horse Championships at Le Lion d’Angers in France for the 7-year-old two-star Championships.

    Winners who are North American bred will be awarded with $17,500 to travel to Le Lion d’Angers while if the winner is an imported horse he will be awarded $8,000.

    If the highest scoring 5-year-old does not qualify or is unable to attend Le Lion d’Angers then the money will be awarded to the next highest scorer who is qualified, able, and willing to go.
    This prize will begin with the high score winner at the 2013 USEA Young Event Horse Championships who would then attend the 2015 World Young Horse Championships.
    I think that's awesome. Hopefully, it will inspire judges to get themselves familiar with Le Lion and what kind of horses belong there.

    IMO, it's not that hard to spot real eventing potential in youngsters. It can't be difficult if even I can do it. However, I did have the opportunity to learn from people who were rather black-and-white about horses and their potential, and that helped a lot.

    After I started reading this thread, I remembered that I have a 5 YO for 2013. He's a very handsome TB with looooooong legs (he looks either like a conformation hunter or a praying mantis depending on if it's a good day or a young-spare-parts phase) and he's coming along very nicely since we got him in October. He might go out for YEH5. But Le Lion? Right now, he's more like Le Kitty.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    After I started reading this thread, I remembered that I have a 5 YO for 2013. He's a very handsome TB with looooooong legs (he looks either like a conformation hunter or a praying mantis depending on if it's a good day or a young-spare-parts phase) and he's coming along very nicely since we got him in October. He might go out for YEH5. But Le Lion? Right now, he's more like Le Kitty.
    Oh - you have my horse's identical twin in the barn? Yeah. We have more than a few goofy Baby Huey days when his legs are too long for the rest of him, but every once in awhile a spark comes through. Hoping he grows up enough to be competitive in YEH this year; Le Lion looks very very far away.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Well, here you go:



    I think that's awesome. .
    While I agree that is awesome...it isn't the same thing as having a similar competition here that encourages riders to produce horses. Also...again, that award requires you to have a 5 year old and do the YEH classes when the winners at Le Lion may not have been doing the YH classes or mature enough at 5 where when they are 7...they are a different horse. A LOT can happen between 5 and 7 between injuries and what not.....as I personally know a little too well.

    I also don't find it hard to spot horses with the raw materials....of course each rider will have their own type which can be a bit different. I DO think it is hard and extremely expensive to find and actually produce those horses to the highest levels....consistently...and keep them sound and happy for a career. And in this country....not many have the pocket books or desire to pay that ticket.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  4. #24
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    Does the rounder basculed horses place better? TIA



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    Does the rounder basculed horses place better? TIA
    Depends on the judge but typically not. I've more often heard it as a concern/negative for xc jumping....but sometimes they jump rounder just because they are greener and the judges are trying to see if they will settle out of that. It is not scored on what horse is the most trained but from what I've seen, the horses who have done more and so don't jump too round and green xc score better.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotSpots View Post
    Oh - you have my horse's identical twin in the barn?
    Maybe. He's lovely to work with and so willing. But sometimes you can't believe that all of that leg material could possibly belong to any one single horse. Today, Glenbaer rode him bareback over to the vet clinic for an appointment, highly-excitable green OTTB that he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    Does the rounder basculed horses place better? TIA
    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Depends on the judge but typically not.
    Hmmmm. I've seen a good number of winners' photos of over-jumping YEHs. As in, huge jump with hooves near eyes over a tiny ditch. Or round WB helicopter over a log. Neither of those are desirables in an eventer.

    Wits End has done a fantastic job on the numbers. The % TB blood stat brings up an interesting question. Should judges be aware of a YEH entrant's pedigree?

    While the judges' job is to judge the YEH in front of them, it is also true that genetics/blood may be the single biggest factor in determining top-level success in eventing.

    Bear with me through a comparison with another species. In human athletic potential terms, the single biggest factor in determining your potential for success almost always comes down to whether you are male or female. That is genetic. There is a gap between male and female performance in sports that require speed and strength.

    In eventing, it appears to be the case that a horse has a very low probability of achieving top-level eventing success without a significant % of TB blood. Yes, there are exceptions but they are and will always remain exceptions so long as an Advanced eventer is required to gallop for 3200m-4400m at 570 mpm.

    If the above is true, why shouldn't the judge have pedigree information on hand, so that they can take into account this factor that contributes exponentially to that horse's chances of success as a UL eventer?

    An experienced, UL rider or trainer would not ignore this information when looking for UL prospects. Why shouldn't this be part of our YEH/FEH judging?



  7. #27
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    JER I can only speak to the competitions I've been to and the finals (on the East Coast). Yes, I've seen those pictures too but at the competitions and finals that I've seen, the over jumping was considered a negative. That of course doesn't mean that other things balanced out for that horse to win. Also, the horse may have over jumped one or two fences but showed later that they will settle. Theses are green horses being judged on potential on that one day against the competition there that day.

    And I was told they cannot consider the horse's pedigree. I consider this a real weakness.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  8. #28
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    re the % tb blood - in a horse who is say tb x wb . Which generation do you look at to determine % of tb blood if the 'wb' also has tb blood?

    (sorry if this is misplaced within this thread.)



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    re the % tb blood - in a horse who is say tb x wb . Which generation do you look at to determine % of tb blood if the 'wb' also has tb blood?

    (sorry if this is misplaced within this thread.)
    There are some sites like this one that calculate it for you:

    http://www.horsetelex.com/

    But not all percentages are =. I don't get too stuck on a number. If they have the type, I don't think the exact percentage will end up being the most important. Hell...there are full TBs who do not have the gallop to run around UL eventing.

    To me, I care more about the pedigree in what the family lines pass on than just whether they have enough blood.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  10. #30
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    BFNE, makes good sense. I have wondered about that for a while ,lol. Thanks.



  11. #31
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    Re: Having a Le Lion-like competition in the states.

    I was just reading through the USEF rulebook for 2013 and came across this. Sounds to me like that is exactly what they are trying to do but correct me if I am wrong. If they are, that is fantastic. I think a domestic 2* for a 7 year old can feel like a much more attainable goal to someone than travelling all the way to Le Lion. This is a new thing right? I'm not just imagining that I've never seen this before?

    2. National Young Horse Championship for the Jonathan R. Burton Trophy.
    Awarded to the owner of the highest placed horse in the USEF National Young
    Horse Eventing Championship who is a U.S. citizen. Open to six and seven year old
    horses. The competition shall be an Autumn CCI2* designated by the Federation.
    Horses and competitors shall qualify in accordance with Federation and FEI Rules
    for a CCI2*.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    There are some sites like this one that calculate it for you:

    http://www.horsetelex.com/

    But not all percentages are =. I don't get too stuck on a number. If they have the type, I don't think the exact percentage will end up being the most important. Hell...there are full TBs who do not have the gallop to run around UL eventing.

    To me, I care more about the pedigree in what the family lines pass on than just whether they have enough blood.
    Absolutely agree, not all percentages are equal and the exact percentage is not the most important factor in whether a horse becomes a 4* horse or not. Just because the average is 75.8% doesn't mean we try to breed a 75.8% blood horse. Statistical analysis of existing 4* horses is one of many tools we use in evaluating potential stallions for our mares.

    I think a common misconception of statistics is that if 34% of all 4* horses are pure TB, a pure TB has a 34% chance of becoming a 4* horse. This is of course false.

    That said, when a program like the YEH is systematically picking horses that are 20% below the average there is probably something wrong with the criteria they are using to judge the horses. That doesn't mean we should analyze pedigrees and only place horses that are a certain % blood, it means the judging criteria should be changed to get the YEH horses statistically closer to proven 4* horses.
    Last edited by Wits End Eventing; Jan. 5, 2013 at 04:31 PM. Reason: to cllarify the point I was trying to make


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  13. #33
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    Wits End...I wasn't aiming my comment at you guys. You are breeding lovely horses. Just pointing out to some people that you can't just go by the numbers
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wits End Eventing View Post
    That said, when a program like the YEH is systematically picking horses that are 20% below the average there is probably something wrong with the criteria they are using to judge the horses. That doesn't mean we should analyze pedigrees and only place horses that are a certain % blood, it means the judging criteria should be changed to get the YEH horses statistically closer to proven 4* horses.
    Exactly.

    But the judging criteria shouldn't take all the blame. The judges should know what they're looking at. The judges should be people who have a proven record of selecting youngsters for UL eventing.



  15. #35
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    BFNE - sorry, should have read twice, sent once. Didn't mean for the post to be harsh and directed at you but rather to emphasize your point that all percentages aren't equal.

    JER - agree 100%



  16. #36
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    JER
    I agree completely



  17. #37
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    i owned, and still own, one of the horses on that list. I ran out of money to support an upper level horse - plain and simple fact. I guess I could have sold him, but I didnt want to. i love the horse and maybe he is wasted on me, but he's mine and i now ride him and i like it that way! Owning an upper level horse is out of this world expensive and unbelievably stressful!!!



  18. #38
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    I would like to kindly -- and calmly -- remind everybody that we have this same exact discussion every single year for as long as these programs have been running.

    Last year, there was a long thread about the FEH program 'evolving' with 'interesting' changes. In 2010, there was a long discussion of TB blood. And also in 2009. And so on. It's all in the archives.

    The recent USEA article sets the bar quite low for post-YEH success. This is a program which claims that 'the ultimate goal is to identify the future four-star horses.'

    There was a 5YO Champion a couple of years ago that napped on XC and stopped at the fences and was sold as a jumper. That is not YEH success if YEH is to be taken seriously on its own terms, especially since the horse napped and stopped (twice) at the Championships.

    So here's to 2013 -- another year in which we are told that the program is 'evolving' and that we should 'support' it by paying entry fees and trailering hundreds of miles and getting our horses prettied up, all for the experience of having someone of questionable qualifications using questionable criteria to evaluate our young horses.

    Like I said, I do have a nice 5YO this year. We do plan to have him ready for YEH. I had a great 4YO last year but other-horse calamities (Good morning! Ohmythat'sabigmysteriousgapingwoundcallthevetNOW) forced us to scratch. So I do continue to 'support.'


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  19. #39
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    The European model is much higher level.

    For those who don't know--the model mentioned in this thread is at the * and ** level and for 6 and 7 year olds.
    Of course that model is going to be much better at determining UL level potential!

    Our YEH competitions are at lower level heights--not exceeding 3'6".
    A damn bovine and jump 4' from a stand still.

    3'6" proves nothing.

    It's a fun competition to showcase youngsters though. And the USEA is trying.
    I am very excited to do the competitions but with horses of such young age it's a crap shoot.
    Owners of these youngsters have to pray that they are at the right "time" in their development to succeed in the competitions.

    Warmbloods AS WELL AS Thoroughbreds are still going through growth spurts as 4 and 5 year olds.

    I had a LOVELY thoroughbred who would have knocked the socks off of those competitions--but he had to take the majority of his 5th year off due to tooth issues and growth spurts.
    However, he would have been able to do the European model for 6 and 7 year olds no problemo.

    It's just all so case sensitive when it comes to these youngins.

    Also, it is true, that we can get more money for these lovely youngsters in the dressage, show jumping, and show hunter worlds. Hence the reason so many of them are sold as such.
    Which brings us to the lengthy discussions about the new age eventing and how we are turning into a money sport--and losing the old school grit. The sport really has no choice because if we don't raise the $$$ standard all of the nice horses are sold out of the sport. Sad but true.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



  20. #40
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    Well actually the British Young Event Horse competitions are for 4 and 5 year olds. The German system (Bundeschampionate) covers 3-7-year olds.

    It is the "international" young horse competitions that are for 6 & 7 year olds at Le Lion D'Angers. There are also 8/9 year old classes at CIC3* level (e.g. at Blenheim). But at that point, it's hardly a "find the talent" competition - those horses are clearly being aimed at event competitions!
    Blugal

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