[Beentheredonethat]

I am not being sarcastic at all. We always went to church, Lutherine, when I was a kid. I learned to truly hate it when my father died when I was eight, and my mother would just cry all of the time at church. I'm sure it left me with some issues. My mom uses the church as her solace to keep her busy and focused and helping, which is, I think, a good thing, though I don't know how much she believes for real.

I just went to a church production down the block at the behest of my neighbor, and it was kick ass wonderful. It was all Xmasy and Jesusy, but it great singing, Broadway quality sets, dancing clearly involving all the local dance schools, and everything. It was great. The pastor came out before the last song and gave a too long litte sermon that sort of rubbed me the wrong way.

What strikes me about most religious people is they are good people and do good things, and I want to be involved with doing all of that. But what struck me about what this pastor was saying was that it's all about God and focusing on God and giving into him and how you just need to let him in to be saved and whatever. If you're that way, fine. But my thoughts kept going back to WHY do you have to keep preaching "look to God/Jesus" to save you and do right? It seems to trivialize people and what we all (most) know. We know how to care and behave and do right and be good and care. Why do we need to look to something else to do that for us? Are we that immature and unintelligent that we need something in the middle?

I've studied (inadvertently) a lot of religions, and this is what bugs me about them all. If I were to go the "religious" route, it would be more something like Buddhism, which doesn't focus on some intermediary to worship, but right behavior.

Do you know what I mean? I'm not trying to start a fight or put anyone down, but it's kind of hard to ask people who truly believe this. WHY do you have to worship Jesus/God, and not just be a good person on your own? I get the community thing, but . . .

[big_red_ottb]

I can't answer your questions, only agree with and echo them. I've never received a satisfactory answer, and usually only get backlash/preaching in return to my inquiries.

[lolita1]

I have been told a number of times now that many christian holidays (like xmas & easter) are actually old pagan holidays. That to convert the pagans they used the same days but for a different god & also use to errect the christian churches where the pagans used to gather.

[LMH]

Your question is a good one and a valid one-and one far far too complicated to try to successfully address over an internet forum.

If you really want answers, and depending on where you live, I may be able to offer a suggestion on how you could find the answers to your questions in a comfortable no pressure, no trying to 'convert' environment.

In spite of our differences on every other thread, my offer is sincere on your question.

Feel free to PM me if you are interested.

Same offer to you big red.

[Bluey]

Simple answer here, you know how some of us are so passionate about horses we tend to become a wind-up toy when someone start us on horse questions?

Well, some are that passionate about their faith and have the same tunnel vision about it.
Their faith becomes all encompassing, the ONE and ONLY really important and relevant topic in their lives.

Give them an inch and they take a mile.
Wound them up on their faith and away they go.

I know well, just was on the receiving end of that, from all places, out of the blue, in the Post Office, when someone, completely out of context, asked me last week "if I had met Jesus".

[clanter]

I know well, just was on the receiving end of that, from all places, out of the blue, in the Post Office, when someone, completely out of context, asked me last week "if I had met Jesus".

heck he may even be working for you as many of the Mexicans that came across the border are named Jesus

[Bluey]

heck he may even be working for you as many of the Mexicans that came across the border are named Jesus

I am afraid that answer may not have gone over that good.

[Daydream Believer]

I pretty much concur with with LMH and Bluey said. Religion is different for everyone and I'm a fallen Christian who has found my way back to God after years of denial. While I'm still not completely sure what "flavor" of Christian I am now, I know what I'm looking for and when I find it again, I'll be back "home" for good. I never liked the hard core in your face sort of Christianity either...hellfire and damnation sermons will drive me right out of the room. Here I sit in the middle of Baptist land also...so I'm still trying to figure out where I belong. The church I grew up in is not this far South so that's not an option for me.

You might research "progressive Christianity." It's a movement and group of people who choose to believe in Christ and his teachings but not necessarily buying into everything else...in particular they are a lot more accepting of other belief systems and lifestyles. There are some on line forums where you can ask questions and books to read, etc....and there are links to churches that are considered "progressive" in certain areas.

A book I read you might like is called "The Wisdom Jesus" by an Episcopalian Minister exploring Jesus' teachings from an "eastern" perspective...as a teacher of wisdom rather than how he is depicted by most churches today...in a more literal manner. I think it's still taught that way by some of the Old Orthodox type churches but you won't find that here in the US most likely.

Good luck on your journey.

[Ruth0552]

I have the same religious reservations. My parents were raised Episcopal and Protestant. My father is still Protestant, but my mother ditched the whole Christianity thing and went for Buddhism for a while, and is now an ordained "interfaith" minister. She does still meditate. Her siblings, also raised Protestant, turned to Catholicism and Bah'hi (not sure about the sp on that). I inadvertently studied other religions as well, either through my mothers ramblings or because I took a number of classes in college based on pre-christanity European literature and culture. So the whole Christianity thing sort of rubs me the wrong way. I sort of worship mother nature, I guess? Not in any kind of formal way, but I believe more in the earth and the life around me than in any thing else.

[BuddyRoo]

First let me just say that I am not religious, but I do enjoy studying and discussing religion. I also think that there's a difference between faith/spirituality and religion.

Anyway...

In the beginning of Christianity, as you probably know, Jesus and his followers were Jews and what it meant to live a Holy life was all based on Jewish law. At about the same time people started considering him the Messiah (something they were always on the lookout for), there were those who thought it was totally blasphemous. One of whom who felt this way was Saul (known as Paul--Saul was his Hebrew name, Paul was his Latin name as he was also a Roman citizen). Anyway, Saul wanted everyone who was "idolizing" Jesus, dead. While on a journey to go kill these "Christians", Saul had an experience during which, Jesus spoke to him.

After that, he decided to follow Christ as well and as a Roman, decided to go to Rome to spread the word to the gentiles. Well, during that time in Rome, things were unstable, there had been famine, people were restless with their Gods, and the message that seemed to resonate best with the gentiles was one of promise of eternal life if they believed in Christ as their Savior.

Paul took that info back to Peter and it became part of their "marketing plan" if you will. However, Peter wasn't very hip to have anyone who hadn't first converted to Judaism and was following Jewish law be involved in the teachings of Christ so there was quite a bit of back and forth there. Paul prevailed and the teachings of Christ were determined to be open for everyone. Anyway....the leaders in Rome felt threatened by the potential for political power wrangling as so many people were converting to Christianity so Peter was crucified (as he was not a Roman citizen), Paul was beheaded (so much kinder since he was a Roman citizen), etc.

Ultimately though, had it not been for the emperor Constantine (I'm pretty sure...) identifying Christianity as a legal religion in Rome and giving land and such to leaders to build their churches, it's questionable that Christianity would've persisted.

It took nearly 300 years to put together most of the writings that we see now and a big part of the reason that things started being written down was to get everyone back on the same page as there was a lot of splintering after Peter and Paul were gone.

If you think about it, once you start throwing money at people so they can have a church, have various leaders going their own directions (often for their own benefit), you end up (IMHO) with "religion" and it gets more and more political and used as a tool to manipulate the masses (control societal behaviors) and rationalize wars that really were about land grabs.

So that was my long winded way of saying that people wanted a guarantee of a place in heaven--and to do that, were willing to follow prescribed rules and have faith in God and Jesus. I think you have to keep in mind that there was a lot that was unexplained back then, a lot of reasons to have faith in something larger. Further, a lot of people were poor, hungry, not the best living conditions--so the draw of having a glorious life in Heaven was something that helped people get through their suffering on this Earth.

I think that when you hear current day sermons about giving yourself over to God, letting Him worry about it, etc, you're encountering the same phenomenon. I think that for those people who are able to truly have faith, they also truly have more peace. I don't think there are very many people who really believe that they can sit on their butts, do nothing, and God will pay their mortgage. But I do think that much like meditation, having some escape in faith allows people to be at peace and I can see the draw in that.

As far as the good works thing...I think that pointing to Jesus as a role model of kindness and grace is fine. And I don't think that *most* people of faith believe that if YOU aren't sitting in the church pew next to them that you're incapable of doing good. I have several fairly religious friends/family members and I've never heard them suggest that I am less of a good person because I am not religious.

My problem is when people sit in church on Sunday, preach this stuff out of one side of their mouth, then rip people off, beat their wives, and are vulgar and unkind the other 6 days of the week and consider themselves "better" because "I'm a Christian." Those folks seem to be missing the point and them being in church is more about what it looks like than what they believe. IMHO, of course.

In the case of your mother, it sounds like she enjoys the companionship of her church family, the organized "good acts", and the sense of belonging to something bigger than herself. Other people feel the same about a knitting club, or riding club, or a cooking club.

Wow. Rambled. Sorry. I do hear what you're saying. I just think think that when you boil it all down, some people really want to/need to believe in something bigger than themselves because it gives them a sense of peace and stability in an otherwise shifting sands kind of world.

[LMH]

Andy Stanley of North Point Ministries is one of the best pastors I know that has messages equipped to answer your questions.

The entire mission of his church is to create an environment where 'unchurched' people are comfortable attending and asking questions.

His most recent message was on Sunday and is the Christmas message...he explains the reason of Christmas...

http://www.northpoint.org/messages/t...fect-christmas

If you REALLY want to know how Christians are SUPPOSED to behave, invest a little more time in his series "Christian:"

http://www.northpoint.org/messages/christian

His approach and 'definition' may surprise you.

Needless to say most Christians (myself included) do a very poor job of behaving accordingly. Leave it to say it is not about attending church or preaching and judging others.

That should get you started...as far as your deeper question as to why look to God-again those involved some pretty in depth discussions that would focus on why Christians believe God is the creator of all things in this world and beyond.

Because He is the creator, we are grateful and humbled that he chose to create us and give us life. We show gratitude by worshipping Him and giving honor to Him as our creator.

No question that "right behavior" is a good thing-Christian are called to be generous, forgiving, loving, and self-less. The sad fact is the no one, Christian or not, is very good at those things.

The fact that we fail every day is why 'we' are grateful to have a Savior...and celebrating of His gift (God's gift) to us...the gift of His Son, Jesus is the reason we celebrate Christmas.

I am grateful to have knowledge and a relationship with a God that would be so self-less that He would do this for me. I try every day to do right...and I fail every day. I am grateful that God loved me enough to send someone else to do right every time every day for his entire life to make up for my shortcomings.

Because I have accepted that God is creator and because I have accepted that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my personal Savior, I can live every day knowing there is something beyond this world. I know that death is not the end. I know that there is purpose and reason greater than just 'me.'

I know that one day I will embrace a life greater than anything I can imagine or dream.

I find great comfort and freedom in this understanding.

What is humbling and awe-inspiring to me is God is so loving and so forgiving that it is beyond anything any of us can comprehend. He even loves those that choose to reject Him as Father and creator.

That means that God loves you even if you don't believe. He loves you even when you criticize Him. That means He loves every person on this thread who has questions and even those that don't have questions yet.

The reason many Christians get in your face or scream and preach is often because they know the results if someone fails to accept that Jesus Christ is the Savior. Granted the screamers are handling it...well...all wrong.

And many have great egos and forget to be humbled in the knowledge of God rather than elevated in that knowledge. Just another example of people getting it wrong...sadly.

Hope that helps somewhat.

[Bluey]

Andy Stanley of North Point Ministries is one of the best pastors I know that has messages equipped to answer your questions.

The entire mission of his church is to create an environment where 'unchurched' people are comfortable attending and asking questions.

His most recent message was on Sunday and is the Christmas message...he explains the reason of Christmas...

http://www.northpoint.org/messages/t...fect-christmas

If you REALLY want to know how Christians are SUPPOSED to behave, invest a little more time in his series "Christian:"

http://www.northpoint.org/messages/christian

His approach and 'definition' may surprise you.

Needless to say most Christians (myself included) do a very poor job of behaving accordingly. Leave it to say it is not about attending church or preaching and judging others.

That should get you started...as far as your deeper question as to why look to God-again those involved some pretty in depth discussions that would focus on why Christians believe God is the creator of all things in this world and beyond.

Because He is the creator, we are grateful and humbled that he chose to create us and give us life. We show gratitude by worshipping Him and giving honor to Him as our creator.

No question that "right behavior" is a good thing-Christian are called to be generous, forgiving, loving, and self-less. The sad fact is the no one, Christian or not, is very good at those things.

The fact that we fail every day is why 'we' are grateful to have a Savior...and celebrating of His gift (God's gift) to us...the gift of His Son, Jesus is the reason we celebrate Christmas.

I am grateful to have knowledge and a relationship with a God that would be so self-less that He would do this for me. I try every day to do right...and I fail every day. I am grateful that God loved me enough to send someone else to do right every time every day for his entire life to make up for my shortcomings.

Because I have accepted that God is creator and because I have accepted that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my personal Savior, I can live every day knowing there is something beyond this world. I know that death is not the end. I know that there is purpose and reason greater than just 'me.'

I know that one day I will embrace a life greater than anything I can imagine or dream.

I find great comfort and freedom in this understanding.

What is humbling and awe-inspiring to me is God is so loving and so forgiving that it is beyond anything any of us can comprehend. He even loves those that choose to reject Him as Father and creator.

That means that God loves you even if you don't believe. He loves you even when you criticize Him. That means He loves every person on this thread who has questions and even those that don't have questions yet.

The reason many Christians get in your face or scream and preach is often because they know the results if someone fails to accept that Jesus Christ is the Savior. Granted the screamers are handling it...well...all wrong.

And many have great egos and forget to be humbled in the knowledge of God rather than elevated in that knowledge. Just another example of people getting it wrong...sadly.

Hope that helps somewhat.

That is very circular thinking.

Believing in a God greater than all, that by definition we can't know and that is enough to prove that He exist and is all that?

No, my definition of faith is to suspend rational thought and use those emotions we all use to form the base of who we happen to be to support the great feeling of being faithful to something bigger than we are.
Many humans thrive with those feelings.
Neurobiology shows us that kind of thinking lights up their pleasure centers very brightly in the faithful.

Being a believer is dependent on the individual itself, part of the reality we form around us to understand who we are, how we fit in our environment and how we interact with it.

So many civilizations have invented God/s from that reality, God/s that reflect their knowledge of the world around them AND their needs and wants.

What gets us back to, if there is a God/s out there, well, no one can say.
I know what I put my "faith" on, answering that question.

Hope that also helps.

[Larksmom]

Wow, Buddy Roo covered a lot of ground here. I would like to add, that the reason people 'preach' to you, is because that is what Jesus commanded. To preach the word to all the world. And that is why there are missionaries in horrid places, risking their lives so that others might be saved. No one wants the people who grab you by the collar and tell you that you are going to hell if you don't get right with Jesus. But they are passionate in what they believe.
Now remember, we all sin, every day. All of us. I know that word has an ill effect on some of you, but there it is.
If you have read any of the threads on this before and my upbringing, I was raised a pagan. My mom went to church when she was a small child. She went with her 'daddy', she at 83 still calls him that. When she was a teen, due to unfortunate circumstances, she went into a foster home. They went to church, and the woman I knew all my life as my grandma, was a kind church going woman, totally immersed in Christianity. But I asked mom recently when she quit going, and she said, as soon as she moved away. So even though she went to church most of her life, she never grasped the significance of what Christ did.
Anyway, we were raised outside church, and I knew from my parents manner they didn't think much of Christians. So I didn't either.
If anyone ever wants to hear how I got converted, pm me. It is a very interesting tale, but too long for this. I am already running on a bit.

As it happens, I am single and childless. OK by me. That is just the way it is. I was never maternal. Have managed to get through life only ever changing a handful of diapers, that sort. I am now driving the church bus on Wednesday night to round up the kiddies for Kids4Truth night church. Most are unchurched like i was, parents don't go, or are to lazy or poor to drive them. What I have found is that kids are never afraid to ask a friend to come to church. And amazingly, the kids want to come!
And yet, the adults Iknow rarely ask a neighbor to come to church, because they fear rejection. I finally met my new neighbor a couple of weeks ago, and invited him to church. He thanked me, but no thanks. I didn't tell him he was going to hell, just invited him to church. Non Christians have painted us with a terrible brush, and it is hard to reverse the trend.
If anyone would like to further this conversation, I would be happy to.

Janis

I just saw LMH's terrific post. When I began my journey, I listened to Andy Stanley's dad, Charles Stanley, I still do. He has gotten me through more tough times than I can imagine. Every week, he seems to be preaching directly to me.

And Bluey, you don't have to believe if you don't want to. We are just telling you what works for us.

[ReSomething]

Nice history BR. IIRC it was Constantine's wife Theodosia(sp?) who was a Christian, but Constantine was instrumental in mainstreaming the religion.

My coworker gave me a copy of the New Testament and I am working my way through the first book, Matthew, right now. Using BR's history and the idea that we are following up on Jewish prophecy, Jesus was the end point of a series that marks the new beginning. Matthew is chock full of verification that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies - where he was born, where he came from and had been, miracles, lots of miracles. S

o when people are talking about accepting Jesus as their Saviour they are basically saying that they acknowledge that Jesus was The One. Adam sinned, was cast out, and Jesus' death wiped clean Adam's original sin (that's where those words come from) so we are all now able to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven - however we have to acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, Judiasm (that covenant) is over etc etc.

I absolutely agree that there is huge corruption in the concept and has been ever since the first days. 2000 years of churchmen making things more palatable to the wealthy and powerful and so many people who just "go for the show" and don't take to heart and practice what is written.

Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes and sinners of all stripes. They needed him.

[twotrudoc]

Great post, LMH, I liked the way you addressed the OPs sincere question

[LMH]

I had another thought on the 'preaching types.'

Yes Jesus commanded his followers to share the news of His coming, birth, death and resurrection.

Where many fall short is actually thinking *I* can somehow convert someone...or *I* can preach enough to change someone...I can't do anything of those things.

The best I can do is use a moment (no question a moment placed before me by God) to share my belief and reasons behind it. At that time, my purpose for being in the moment is complete.

It is the Holy Spirit that softens a persons heart to the message that Christ is the Messiah and Savior...it is God that does that work...not me and certainly not a corner screamer.

The best a person can do is be available and equipped to answer questions, direct someone to place of answers, and pray that God works in that persons heart.

As Janis said, we invite and offer opportunity but really no need to force, scream and judge.

[BuddyRoo]

On evangelism...One of the things I loved about the synagogue I attended in college (minored in world religion, attended lots of different services) was that the golden rule and basically "letting your light shine" was the focus. I felt much more comfortable with that concept.

[Bluey]

-
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-I think there is less alcoholism and wife beating in a Christian home than in a non Christian home.
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And Bluey, you don't have to believe if you don't want to. We are just telling you what works for us.

Wow, that exactly reflects what so many very religious people believe.

Thank you for giving me permission to not be a believer.
The scary part to believers is their self righteousness.
I grew up under a dictator that went faithfully to mass every morning all his life, praying that his God guided him to govern in a way that honored his God rightly, while murdering millions of people.
His words when asked about the carnage, caught on film, they are true: "If it takes killing half the population, we will do God's work, at whatever cost, until all are believers."

You can say that was a madman, but the reality is that religions and believers are still today killing millions.
That we happen not to do so today in the USA is merely an accident of how our culture developed and I would not bet on it too much.
I live in the Bible Belt and Salem, even today, would not be so strange to see happen again.

People guided by emotions first are scary, any of them, because by definition, they suspend rational thinking.
I think that it takes both, emotions AND rational thinking, to be a truly well balanced human being.

[ellebeaux]

A book I read you might like is called "The Wisdom Jesus" by an Episcopalian Minister exploring Jesus' teachings from an "eastern" perspective...as a teacher of wisdom rather than how he is depicted by most churches today...in a more literal manner. I think it's still taught that way by some of the Old Orthodox type churches but you won't find that here in the US most likely.

Good luck on your journey.

That looks like a great book - I'm going to buy it for my dad and couple other folks. Thanks for the suggestion!

[LMH]

Great post, LMH, I liked the way you addressed the OPs sincere question

thank you. I did my best to offer a sincere answer.

I was raised in a Christian home-interestingly enough a Lutheran home. I never remember 'not believing' or not having church in my life.

In August 2010 I started attending North Point and heard Andy for the first time. It was TOTALY different from the traditional service of my 'home church.' It was fun and relevant...with great music and humor! Not boring and sleepy.

In September 2010 my dad passed away and my world was flipped upside down. My dad was my foundation and my rock...I had a very hard time wrapping my head around a life without him.

Anyway, I continued to attend North Point and am grateful for every message that God has inspired Andy to offer me and to those willing to listen.

His understanding of the Bible and his ability to explain the teachings of the Bible...well...all I can say is that it is a gift. Not only Andy but every pastor in the church.

His ability to create a comfortable environment for those unfamiliar with the Bible is an even bigger gift. That is why I suggest starting with his website and message or even finding a local church that is affiliated with NP (they are literally all over).

It is because of how God works in that environment, because of the gift of those leaders, that I have been able to heal from the loss of my dad.

It is also because of God's presence in that environment that I now have a deeper understanding of God and Jesus than I did in the 40+ years before. It is made very real and very personal.

It is made into something good and wonderful not something screaming and judgmental. Something VERY opposite of what Bluey's experiences have been! Thankfully!

So if *I* now come across 'preachy' (yikes, I hope not!) it is only because I would wish the freedom, comfort, peace and confidence for that I have found for everyone else.


And no it does not make me perfect so yes I will likely still come across sharp in my other posts...it is all a process.