[cdnsp0rthorse]

Also looking for opinions on the following 3 feeds for a hard keeper.

Horse is currently getting 2 quarts if this x2 daily..

http://blueseal.com/files/feeding-an...ne/4_Pacer.pdf

But I am looking at the following as well..

http://blueseal.com/files/feeding-an.../5_Charger.pdf

http://blueseal.com/files/feeding-an...geMareFoal.pdf

TIA for your feedback!

[gabby.gator]

JMO, when I took in a rescue a couple of years ago, my vet recommended, for him, and a hard keeper, to look at senior feeds. Both did quite well on the Sentinel Senior, gained weight relatively quickly, and were not hyper on it.

this doesn't answer your question re: those three feeds, it's just my experience.

[ryansgirl]

I would choose none of them. NSC is way too high for me in sweet feeds. If you only have access to Blue Seal then I would feed the Performance LS - high in fat and low NSC. I have had excellent results with that feed. You could also try their Dynasty feeds too - those are high in fat also though I don't know their NSC numbers though they replaced their SBP line which had low NSCs. My other choice would be Triple Crown Senior or Complete.

[cdnsp0rthorse]

Those are the only options of feeds available to me in a complete feed as the horse has allergies.

[besttwtbever]

My horse is a very hard keeper and here's what I do. He has hay in front of him 24/7. He is on 5 pounds of the highest fat complete feed I can get my hands on morning and night and in addition gets a fat supplement. I use cool calories and have had very good luck with it but you can just use canola oil too.

Hope this helps.

[cdnsp0rthorse]

Horse has access to quality hay 24/7.

On top of the Blue Seal she gets 1 cup of rice bran x2 daily.

[mhtokay]

If he's newly a hard keeper, a panacur power pac might be the ticket.

[D Taylor]

It would be best if you offer more info. How many pounds of what kind of hay?

A quart of Pacer weighs how much? Roughly a 1lb?

Horse breed, age, work load etc? Health issues?

At 4qts daily that is only adding somewhere aroumd 6000cal/day to the ration. My hard keeper would have to consume 26000cal/day in hay...which he can not do.

Neither of the alternative feeds you are considering offers much more in the way of calories tho CP is higher.

[ryansgirl]

Those are the only options of feeds available to me in a complete feed as the horse has allergies.

What exactly is the horse allergic too that he/she can't have? and why does it have to be a complete feed? Like mentioned above a lot more info is needed.

[Stacie]

Yeah, those three feeds are essentially the same. I can't imagine what your horse is allergic to as one feed seems to have every kind of grain on the planet in it :-). These feeds are really complex for the gut to digest. You might consider going to a ration balancer, alfalfa pellets and rice bran pellets and oil if the horse needs a lot more calories.

It is not always all about calories. Sometimes the horse cannot absorb the nutrients or the gut cannot break the food down. So you might try a gut enhancer. Manna-pro makes a wonderful product called Opti-zyme which you can order online if your local feed store doesn't carry it.

[cdnsp0rthorse]

Wheat allergy as of an allergy test done this past summer.

I've just been having issues with random weight gain and loss since I had to change what she was getting for grain previously.

She was eating 1.5 quarts of HFHF and 1 quart beet pulp x2 daily.

I don't like to feed a lot of grain because this horse had a severe ulcer 6 years ago. She still gets treated with Gastroguard for 2 weeks twice per year.

She is ridden 5x per week and the reason I am asking about the mare & foal feed is because from what I have available in my area that I can feed her, I have the 3 options in the first post.

I have also been pondering on feeding corn oil again to add fat.

I guess my main question was.. is it safe to feed a non-preggo mare feed that is designed for mare & foal?

[D Taylor]

[QUOTE=cdnsp0rthorse;6766804]Wheat allergy as of an allergy test done this past summer.

I've just been having issues with random weight gain and loss since I had to change what she was getting for grain previously.

She was eating 1.5 quarts of HFHF and 1 quart beet pulp x2 daily.

I don't like to feed a lot of grain because this horse had a severe ulcer 6 years ago. She still gets treated with Gastroguard for 2 weeks twice per year.

She is ridden 5x per week and the reason I am asking about the mare & foal feed is because from what I have available in my area that I can feed her, I have the 3 options in the first post.

I have also been pondering on feeding corn oil again to add fat.

I guess my main question was.. is it safe to feed a non-preggo mare feed that is designed for mare & foal?[QUOTE]




There is nothing in the feed at the levels you are considering (assuming you are going to feed at about the same amount) that would be toxic nor a severe mineral imbalance.

But I doubt you are going to see much in the manner of weight gain by such a switch.

I have great results with my hard keeper using his feed (grain blend) mixed with alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. AND the addition of 2 cups of soybean oil daily during hard winter.

He is not always the best hay eater. Frankly he is too busy clowning around and playing to stand around munching on hay for great periods of time. And he takes some serious calories. So nightly I hang a huge munch bucket with the above mixed in it. As it is more fiber than grain I do not worry about him eating if too quickly.

Literally takes him all night to eat it and a flake of alfalfa. Without the 2 cups of oil I would be sunk trying to keep his weight up for hard winter.

If your horse is ulcer prone I suggest you use alfalfa hay and or alfalfa pellets, oat bran if you can find it and crude soybean oil (not the store bought clear stuff) as it is lecithin rich. All 3 ingredients would be better suited for horse with a wheat allergy with ulcer tendencies than a mare/foal ration.

[mlb722]

I don't believe charger is a mare/foal exclusive type feed. I do recall it being fed to all horses at some barns.

What about Vintage sweet? I've been using this for my extremely picky senior, and she does well on it.

[SuckerForHorses]

Pacer is CRAP. It's almost 40% NSC! Please don't feed it!

[SuckerForHorses]

I agree with those suggesting more forage, and adding alfalfa cubes or pellets with rice bran for this horse. Blue Seal Sentinal Senior would be a MUCH better choice than any of the three gou listed if you insist on feeding a grain. Feeding Pacer is a recipe for another ulcer with thosestarch levels.

[cdnsp0rthorse]

Pacer is CRAP. It's almost 40% NSC! Please don't feed it!

Can you educate me more on NSC? What is an ideal level in feeds?

[cdnsp0rthorse]

Is it that bad even if I am feeding it in much lower quantity then suggested by the manufacture?

[kmmoran]

NSC are Non-structural carbohydrates. See here:
http://www.ker.com/library/advances/103.pdf

It seems that your horse is getting calories without enough good nutrition from that grain. Horses need lots and lots of fiber, and all of those options have less than 10%. That's no good. To get the fiber, ingredients in the horse's diet need to move from empty energy products (corn, oats, molasses) to products filled with fiber and natural vitamins (alfalfa, beet pulp, hay). I would supplement his food with alfalfa cubes, or an oil such a cocasoya. Aiding in his digestion will aid him in getting the nutrition from his food.

Since you need weight on the horse, feeding empty calories isn't the worst thing in the world. However there are more nutritious ways to do so. It is somewhat "bad" that you are not feeding the suggested amounts because the amounts of vitamins and minerals necessary for the horse are based on the recommended amount of grain. Like if I ate only half of my multivitamin, I can't think that I am getting 100% of my daily vitamin A since I didn't have the serving size. To solve the issue of vitamins/minerals without adding grain, you could try a ration balancer if one is available to you. Those are packed with nutrients but are fed on a very small scale. Or you could try a vitamin supplement.

As for oils, I would steer clear of corn oil. It is high in Omega 6's and low in Omega 3's. 6's are pro-imflammatory and 3 are anti-imflammatory. Canola oil is just not even a natural product so I really hate it. Here is a summary on omega's that is decent: http://blog.smartpakequine.com/2010/...rses-corn-oil/
I would try coconut oil or cocasoya oil. Those have a better omega ration but still high fat and high calorie.

Good luck!

[cdnsp0rthorse]

In a perfect world, what would you feed an ulcer prone horse with wheat allergies who needs to gain weight that has quality mixed hay in front of them 24/7?

[SuckerForHorses]

I just double checked...the NSC of Pacer is actually 45.5% so worse than I originally thought. Its Blue Seal's highest NSC value grain.

I like to stay below 15% NSC for a horse with ulcers or who is ulcer prone. Grain that is high in starch can contribute to ulcers. I would at the very least, stop feeding the horse Pacer immediately.

If I had to guess, part of me thinks that this horse is a hard keeper because an ulcer has recurred, which would not surprise me because of the Pacer.

I would do as others have suggested...get back to forage as the base of the diet. Alfalfa cubes soaked and fed twice a day. Then, I would add a ration balancer that is wheat free if you can find one. If you cannot, find a vitamin/mineral supplement to add to the diet. He needs his vitamins and minerals somehow. Then, I would add a fat supplement: oil, cool calories, rice bran, flax, etc.

You're running around in circles feeding an ulcer prone horse a feed that is conducive to ulcers in the first place, and may very well by why the horse is having a hard time putting on and keeping on weight.