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  1. #21
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    Aug. 24, 2009
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    I had an OTTB who was very hard to keep weight on. We liked Cool Calories, and the two other things that really helped him were regular visits with the dentist (every six months, instead of 9 - 12 like most of the other horses in the barn) and spending the night outside in a grass paddock with a round bale. All the grain we could stuff into him didn't fatten him up quite enough, but those 'lifestyle changes' did the trick.



  2. #22
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    Mar. 13, 2003
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    Every horse is a bit different, but I have had really good luck with a few things for skinny TBs. Right now I have a 14 year old jumper in full work. I keep good weight and muscle on him with Triple Crown Senior, Tri-Amino and Cool Calories in his Smartpak, and (last winter, when he wasn't on very good pasture), as much mixed alfalfa/grass hay as he would eat at night in his stall.

    This winter he's not on the alfalfa, but his field still has grass in it, and there is a round bale coming soon. He is about 16.3hh, built big, and gets 7 lbs of TC Senior a day. If he starts dropping I will get a few bales of straight alfalfa and throw him one or two flakes along with his regular hay at night. I love the Triple Crown feeds, but there are several other low-sugar, easily digestible grains out there. The TC Senior is nice because it can work for all ages- my 4.5 year old Dutch WB/Baby Moose gets 5 lbs of it a day and is blooming.
    You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil



  3. #23

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    Do not ever use corn oil..if anything add a good omega 3-6-9, 5 day panacur power pack, even run a cbc...keep good hay in front of them all the time..alfalfa usually works best for TB's


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  4. #24
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    Dec. 18, 2006
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    OP, what are you feeding now? Oil will definitely add calories, but some horses will not eat it, especially in large amounts, and as already noted, it's somewhat messy to feed.

    Last year I had great luck getting weight back on my skinny mare (in the winter, even) with Triple Crown Senior (high in fat, beet pulp based, very, very low in sugar/NSC and not just a senior feed...can be used for all ages), alfalfa pellets, and rice bran pellets. If your BO does not mind soaking beet pulp, that is an option as well. And free choice hay. You can get a net to keep him from throwing it around and wasting it.



    This is very dangerous to me. Especially the double Quest. Moxidectin (active ingredient in Quest) is stored in fat and can be easily overdosed. It's only been proven safe at 3x the recommended dose for weight, and it's not something to be played around with, most especially on a thin horse. Compare that to Ivermectin, which you can dose at 20-30x recommended and probably still not run into toxicity issues (not that I would ever do this...just what's been done in safety trials). Fenbendazole (Panacur/Power Pac) is less effective and has resistance issues in some areas of the country.

    If you think the horse has worms, do a fecal. You can have a vet do it, or there is a place online that you can order a kit from and mail it in. Tapeworms and encysted strongyles will not show up, so there is that to consider. I would personally worm with Equimax now, then do a fecal in 8ish weeks to see what's there, then Quest Plus in 2-3 months time (from now - around the time of the first thaw wherever you are) to get migrating strongyles as well as encysted.
    Agree with everything here.
    First, it's impossible to recommend changes to a diet without knowing what you're currently feeding. Ideally, I'd add calories in the form of hay, but if your horse is currently getting free choice hay that is not necessarily a good suggestion.

    I also agree about the double Quest. Not to mention the fecal would be much less expensive than a Power Pac + Quest x 2. Get a fecal, and then deworm based on that; many vets will still recommend Power Pac or Quest based on a negative fecal, but my vet does not suggest doing them consecutively (or at least has never done so with me). I think Power Pac, followed by something for tapeworms (e.g. Equimax) in 8 weeks has been suggested to me before - this was for a horse that had live worms in its manure, so we knew what we were dealing with to some degree....


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  5. #25
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    Dec. 30, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlecreek View Post
    My TB stays round and shiny and has his brain intact on just beet pulp and flax seed. he gets 1 1/2 coffee cans of beet pulp pellets and a half a can of ground flax soaked together 2 times a day. he also gets lots of hay- always has a net stuffed full in his stall. he like a hay net and reduces the "Someone made poopy on my hay and now I can't eat it!" from happening.
    If he gets any kind of starch based feeds he gets stupid/spooky/snorty/look at my piaffe and passage (not good in a 3' hunter) in a hurry.
    Ear stuffies also are a big help in keeping him focussed.
    Mine too!! Finally, after two years of trying different feeds I cut out grain all together in one of mine out of sheer desperation. He only gets a vit/mineral supplement, beet pulp and flax. All the hay he will eat. His behaviour has improved a whopping 95%. He has gone from nearly unrideable to looking like a schoolmaster at times. I'd thought the high fat/low starch feeds would work for him but they didn't.

    He needed weight and I HATE having a skinny horse so this was very difficult for me. Strangely, he looks the best he ever has now with a really nice topline and good weight. I wish I'd removed all grain about two years ago...he cost a lot in training and vet visits to try and figure out why his behaviour was so extreme.


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  6. #26
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    Jul. 25, 2003
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    Boston Area
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starhouse View Post
    Purina Amplify is the best bang for your buck calories-to-dollars. It's 30% fat compared to 23% fat in the average rice bran. I pay $45 for a 50lb bag. For my hard keeper OTTB, I feed the Amplify, a high fat/low carb grain (Poulin Fibre Max), and high quality free choice hay. I do put her on oil sometimes to help coat condition, but never corn oil as that promotes an inflammatory response because it has the wrong ratio of omega 3's and 6's. Instead, I feed canola oil.
    I also feed Amplify because it's easy, palatable and it works. I feed oil sometimes but it's hard to do it in the winter and it's messy at the best of times.

    Rice bran is high in starch and not that high in fat (relatively). However, I've had horses that just loved it and when I added it to their feed made even the pickiest eater lick the bowl.

    You might also consider a pro-biotic to make sure your horse is getting the most from what you are feeding.

    I did a comparison of different fat sources and their cost on my blog awhile back. I personally think the jury is out regarding the inflammatory properties of corn oil. There have been (to my knowledge) not studies that prove it's detrimental, but of course each person should make your own decision.

    When I feed oil, I buy whatever is the least expensive at Costco.

    http://equineink.com/2010/03/15/the-cost-of-adding-fat-to-your-horses-diet/


    I would always do a fecal test before a PowerPak treatment. At least in my area, many horses are showing resistance to powerpacks and it's just a waste of money to do it. We do bi-yearly fecal tests on our herd and de-worm accordingly.


    Last edited by Bogie; Jan. 3, 2013 at 10:28 AM. Reason: added information
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  7. #27
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickelodian View Post
    You may get more responses over in horse care, however my best experience with getting a horse fat is to do the following:

    1. Power pack them - Do the 5 days of power pack, then 10 days later do a quest, 10 days after that do a quest plus. This gets rid of all stages of encysted small strongyles. Critical for horses that are underweight.
    I haven't read all the replies, so if this has been addressed, my apologies, but please, do NOT do this. It's bad enough to use Quest only 10 days after a Power Pack (which actually gets most encysted strongyles anyway), but to use Quest AGAIN in another 10 days is asking for an overdose. ESPECIALLY if a horse is already underweight

    Moxidectin is metabolized in fat, which is part of what makes it last 12 weeks instead of the 8 that ivermectin is good for. This is also what makes it dangerous to over-dose and to use in underweight (ie lacking sufficient fat) horses.

    I'm also saddened, but not surprised, that it took 15 replies to ask what the horse is eating now But I'm glad to see that reply also said what I just did

    There is NO reason to start adding this and that and deworming the snot out of a horse before you evaluate and possibly revamp what the horse is currently eating.

    I have to go read page 2 now to see if it's been said what he's eating now
    ______________________________
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  8. #28
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Ok, so it seems we don't know exactly what the OP horse is eating. She said "low sugar", but what, exactly?

    The first thing is free choice hay. Always. If that's not being done, do that.

    if that can't be done, and I do understand more hay is not always possible in boarding situations, then you still have options.

    The first thing would be to evaluate the grain. Some "low sugar" labeled grains are really not that low - low compared to others, but still too high for some horses. Think 20% or so.

    Alfalfa sensitivity can be a problem. So can a soy sensitivity. So if the sugar really is low enough, then I'd try to eliminate first 1, then the other of these 2 things, and see what happens.

    And yes, it may simply be this horse is showing his true colors now that he's got more calories and weight in him
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  9. #29
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    Apr. 8, 2000
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    Austin, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    This is very dangerous to me. Especially the double Quest. Moxidectin (active ingredient in Quest) is stored in fat and can be easily overdosed. It's only been proven safe at 3x the recommended dose for weight, and it's not something to be played around with, most especially on a thin horse. Compare that to Ivermectin, which you can dose at 20-30x recommended and probably still not run into toxicity issues (not that I would ever do this...just what's been done in safety trials). Fenbendazole (Panacur/Power Pac) is less effective and has resistance issues in some areas of the country.
    Interesting. This is the recommended method by the holistic vet in my area. I would think it would be virtually impossible to overdose on the quest given the 10 day waiting period assuming you dose based on weight. I've done this on at least 15 thin horses and see them truly bloom afterward when nothing else works.

    Fenbenzadole resistance is scary. How else will we get rid of EL3? Ugh.



  10. #30
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickelodian View Post
    Interesting. This is the recommended method by the holistic vet in my area. I would think it would be virtually impossible to overdose on the quest given the 10 day waiting period assuming you dose based on weight. I've done this on at least 15 thin horses and see them truly bloom afterward when nothing else works.

    Fenbenzadole resistance is scary. How else will we get rid of EL3? Ugh.
    Lots of vets are not up to date on good worming or feeding protocols.

    Moxidectin is stored in fat and metabolized over 12 weeks, as JB says. I believe Quest Plus will get all stages of strongyles? From what I recall, anyway. Just be careful to dose as recommended.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
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  11. #31
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    Feb. 9, 2005
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    I thought doing Quest Plus on an underweight horse was a no-no??

    Anyway, how much hay does the horse get? Also, how much turnout? I agree with JB--not enough info.

    That said, I board and found Triple Crown Senior to be a good all-in-one feed for a hard keeper that can get hot, at a barn that didn't want to mess with supplements or soaking, etc. I have had horses that were perfectly fine getting a flake or two of alfalfa as well (no behavior issues) and some that couldn't. I have also used rice bran pellets, Amplify, Cool Calories & Omegatin before with success, but now you are getting into supplementing the feed. People sometimes help themselves too. I've fed flax as a top dressing, but in limited amounts. I didn't bother grinding it.
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  12. #32
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    I thought doing Quest Plus on an underweight horse was a no-no??

    Anyway, how much hay does the horse get? Also, how much turnout? I agree with JB--not enough info.

    That said, I board and found Triple Crown Senior to be a good all-in-one feed for a hard keeper that can get hot, at a barn that didn't want to mess with supplements or soaking, etc. I have had horses that were perfectly fine getting a flake or two of alfalfa as well (no behavior issues) and some that couldn't. I have also used rice bran pellets, Amplify, Cool Calories & Omegatin before with success, but now you are getting into supplementing the feed. People sometimes help themselves too. I've fed flax as a top dressing, but in limited amounts. I didn't bother grinding it.
    I think it depends on how underweight. A body score of three or so...I personally think would be fine, and in fact I wormed my mare last spring with QP when she was about a three, with no problems (you could barely see ribs, but she was otherwise in good weight). If you're talking about a BC of two or less? No way would I use QP. IMO.

    I also love TC Senior. I switched my mare to it last January when she started getting super skinny over the winter. She is holding her weight fabulously so far this year. Knock wood***.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
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  13. #33
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickelodian View Post
    Interesting. This is the recommended method by the holistic vet in my area. I would think it would be virtually impossible to overdose on the quest given the 10 day waiting period assuming you dose based on weight. I've done this on at least 15 thin horses and see them truly bloom afterward when nothing else works.
    I think you have been lucky if you have done basically double dosing moxidectin on thin horses.

    10 days doesn't remotely mean the chemical is gone - see the information above regarding it being stored in fat cells, which means more of it gets stored if you dose again, which is what can easily lead to an overdose. Please, just don't do it.

    Besides, there is NO reason for this protocol from a parasite perspective. The first Quest would do a very thorough job on EL1-2 stage strongyles. Another dose isn't going to make it do more, and it's certainly not going to get EL3

    Fenbenzadole resistance is scary. How else will we get rid of EL3? Ugh.
    You don't worry about it. If you are following a good deworming program *which includes as liberal a use of FECs as necessary until things are under control*, then if the EL3 situation is bad enough, it won't be long before they show up as egg-shedding adults, at which time either ivermectin or moxidectin will kill them all.

    At THAT point you basically have a "clean" horse ,never to develop any encysted population worth noting, as long as you use ivermectin or moxidectin twice a year, Spring and Fall, and use FECs in the interim to make sure that's all the horse needs.
    ______________________________
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    Lots of vets are not up to date on good worming or feeding protocols.
    Sadly, this is too true

    I believe Quest Plus will get all stages of strongyles?
    It doesn't It doesn't get the EL3 stage. The Power Pack gets all stages. BUT, it has issues:

    - growing resistance, thanks to the long-term and growing resistance of adult strongyles to fenbendazole - it was inevitable that the encysted buggers become resistant sooner or later
    - because it kills the worms in place, they decay in place, and that causes little ulcerations wherever they were. This can cause colic issues with some horses - exactly the same issue as if the encysteds emerged.
    ______________________________
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  15. #35
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    Aug. 25, 2005
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    A holistic vet is not necessarily equine oriented but then what animal would you give a possible o.d. of moxidectin?

    As far as corn oil goes, I have used it for years but only 1-4 ounces a day, in the winter months. I start with low amounts in any case.

    Here is a researched take on it:
    http://www.equinews.com/article/corn...n-equine-diets

    And anecdotal:
    http://forum.horsetopia.com/health-n...-corn-oil.html

    And then there are the product packaging companies, touting their own products, who will tell you how"dangerous" it is.
    Last edited by merrygoround; Jan. 3, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
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