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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookes View Post

    First off, the testing of each winning horse? How, who, when do the results come back. What is horse tests positive or a false positive? Are you going to publicly vilify the rider? trainer? If a false positive how about re-testing? You could ruin someone's reputation due to this! You could also end up with a huge law suit against you the sponsor and possibly the show's deeper pockets. I would think that blood draws would be the only way to do this right?

    I could see this 'maybe' working at the lower B-C levels but not at the upper levels. I would think a very serious set of rules would have to be established and have rider's sign it along with their trainers.

    This is a wonderful idea in theory, however making it happen at those levels could be fraught with too many problems.
    Wait a sec. Why do you suppose those at the B/C level would accept risks like "villifying riders" when those at the A levels would not?

    And that brings me to that "villifying riders" statement. IMO, no one is any more or less villified than they are now. You lose the ribbons you won, your name is listed as losing that for a horse's positive piss test. At present, and within this proposed competition, the false positive risk is the same.

    If the A Crowd can deal with this at present, then what's the difference between making a Division that primarily varies in that it tests all horses and not at random as USEF-sanctioned shows do?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I'm slightly confused as to where the NON-drug free divisions are?

    Isn't there a fee on every single entry to pay for random drug testing?

    My understanding of the drug problem was that the divisions are already SUPPOSED to be drug free, but people cheat. Not that the "hey, come one come all with your ace and your reserpine and your bute" divisions are the norm. It is my understanding that currently VETROLIN is already against the USEF rules (which whoops!, I blatantly used on my horse before I knew this), so it is not like it is just an unchecked free for all out there.

    I suspect that you will encounter the same enforcement issues that the normal divisions already do. I mean, is everyone just going to be on their honor that "well, for THIS division we didn't even give it a hock injection three months ago and we don't even feed Cosequin EVAR?"

    Are you looking for more restrictive drug rules than are already in place (for example, Legend being not allowed ever, and no SmartFlex either?), or somehow thinking your division will have better enforcement or more honest competitors who cross their heart and hope to die that they don't use untestables, or some combination of the two?

    Meupatdoes, I don't know that the sponsorship will take the form of sponsoring a division.

    No, my goal is not to create a new division that is touted as drug free (vs all the other divisions); my goal is to not give sponsorship money to sleazy people who drug their horses up to their eyeballs. It may not be possible to do this if the sponsorship covers a division. I think it is more likely to achieve this by sponsoring a person or team.

    However, again, the overriding goal of the sponsorship would be to highlight the product.

    I read the Humble threads, and I read all the various ideas people have thrown out to make things better. My thought is that money talks, and if sponsors can somehow influence things for the better, that's a good thing. That's all.



  3. #43
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    What's the ROI?
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  4. #44
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    What do you mean, the return on the sponsorship $$ or the return for the entire venture?



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMF11 View Post
    Meupatdoes, I don't know that the sponsorship will take the form of sponsoring a division.

    No, my goal is not to create a new division that is touted as drug free (vs all the other divisions); my goal is to not give sponsorship money to sleazy people who drug their horses up to their eyeballs. It may not be possible to do this if the sponsorship covers a division. I think it is more likely to achieve this by sponsoring a person or team.

    However, again, the overriding goal of the sponsorship would be to highlight the product.

    I read the Humble threads, and I read all the various ideas people have thrown out to make things better. My thought is that money talks, and if sponsors can somehow influence things for the better, that's a good thing. That's all.
    This still doesn't answer my question.

    Is your "drug free" idea based on wanting more restrictions than the USEF currently has (ie, for my sponsorship, I won't pay out prize money to a horse that's on Legend -which is certainly your prerogative), or on somehow having additional enforcement to what's already out there (ie, testing EVERY winner and trusting competitors on the untestables)?

    What I am wondering is where exactly you are drawing the line so that your sponsorship is less rewarding/tolerant of drug use than USEF (vs your sponsorship) is? Do you foresee horses that would win a prize according to USEF that you would deny sponsorship money too because they are less drug free than your standards, and if so, what is an example of something you might foresee and how you would discover it?



  6. #46
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    More general question--can show management or division sponsors dictate who will be tested by the USEF testers, or would this require separate, private testers?



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Wait a sec. Why do you suppose those at the B/C level would accept risks like "villifying riders" when those at the A levels would not?

    And that brings me to that "villifying riders" statement. IMO, no one is any more or less villified than they are now. You lose the ribbons you won, your name is listed as losing that for a horse's positive piss test. At present, and within this proposed competition, the false positive risk is the same.

    If the A Crowd can deal with this at present, then what's the difference between making a Division that primarily varies in that it tests all horses and not at random as USEF-sanctioned shows do?
    The B/C levels do not see the type of sponsorship that you see at the A-AA levels. The A-AA level show managers would not touch this type of sponsorship with a 10 foot pole. At least none that I know. However the B and C levels may be interested. That's all.

    If a horse has a false positive test and is then vilified for being drugged! This could result in huge law suits. Again no A-AA circuit show manager would touch with a 10 foot pole. Too many lawsuits just looking for a place to happen.

    Don't shoot the messenger here, just telling you that a sponsorship such as this is not one that my clients would be interested in.
    Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Wait a sec. Why do you suppose those at the B/C level would accept risks like "villifying riders" when those at the A levels would not?

    And that brings me to that "villifying riders" statement. IMO, no one is any more or less villified than they are now. You lose the ribbons you won, your name is listed as losing that for a horse's positive piss test. At present, and within this proposed competition, the false positive risk is the same.

    If the A Crowd can deal with this at present, then what's the difference between making a Division that primarily varies in that it tests all horses and not at random as USEF-sanctioned shows do?
    The B/C levels do not see the type of sponsorship that you see at the A-AA levels. The A-AA level show managers would not touch this type of sponsorship with a 10 foot pole. At least none that I know. However the B and C levels may be interested. That's all.

    If a horse has a false positive test and is then vilified for being drugged! This could result in huge law suits. Again no A-AA circuit show manager would touch with a 10 foot pole. Too many lawsuits just looking for a place to happen.

    Don't shoot the messenger here, just telling you that a sponsorship such as this is not one that my clients would be interested in.
    Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookes View Post
    If a horse has a false positive test and is then vilified for being drugged! This could result in huge law suits.....

    Don't shoot the messenger here, just telling you that a sponsorship such as this is not one that my clients would be interested in.
    Not mad at you per se. But I don't get the logic, especially this bit. Aren't folks currently already at risk for false positives?

    Or is your point that this happens enough (but currently doesn't have implications for sponsors), that sponsors are wary?

    Is there a huge glut of lawsuits concerning false positive drug tests in USEF land that I just don't know about?

    Unless that's so, I think your clients would be logically mistaken to reject sponsorship on this basis. They certainly can reject sponsorship if they like.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    More general question--can show management or division sponsors dictate who will be tested by the USEF testers, or would this require separate, private testers?
    Under current rules, testing is random and no sponsor, other individual or member of show managementmay participate in selection or dictate who is tested. You could run outside of USEF oversight with your own, private drug testers in a non recognized class.

    I just wonder, with the alcohol sponsorship here...some states there is no way this would fly. Some of the suggestions involving awarding some of the product would run afoul of state and local distribution laws, possibly taxation issues...and you could and probably would get sued if somebody drank it and hit something with their car.

    And, again, just strikes me that an alcohol company sponsoring an anti drug activity in a family setting like a horse show would not be taken seriously or come off as hypocritical. I don't like it to be honest...and I like my cocktails.

    Just think it's an ill thought out product placement in an inappropriate place.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Under current rules, testing is random and no sponsor, other individual or member of show managementmay participate in selection or dictate who is tested. You could run outside of USEF oversight with your own, private drug testers in a non recognized class.

    I just wonder, with the alcohol sponsorship here...some states there is no way this would fly. Some of the suggestions involving awarding some of the product would run afoul of state and local distribution laws, possibly taxation issues...and you could and probably would get sued if somebody drank it and hit something with their car.

    And, again, just strikes me that an alcohol company sponsoring an anti drug activity in a family setting like a horse show would not be taken seriously or come off as hypocritical. I don't like it to be honest...and I like my cocktails.

    Just think it's an ill thought out product placement in an inappropriate place.

    Not 100% sure, but doesn't Moet sponsor Pin Oak? And Veuve Clicquot sponsors polo classics in NY and one in Palm Beach, as well as one in California.


    ETA: Just checked - yes Moet does sponsor Pin Oak, through their Moet & Chandon champagne and through the Hennessy sector of the company. I specifically remember knocking down a pole on the Hennessy jump.
    http://pinoak.org/sponsors/2012-show...rate-partners/


    I really don't think the alcohol is a problem here, and I don't think it's illegal. Like someone said, bars sponsor little league teams. And as for the "family event" thing, if my high school (when I attended and still to this day) served alcohol at their "family fair" (and I'm talking margaritas with Everclear) for the parents, then I think a division in a horse show can be sponsored by a vodka.



  12. #52
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    How about a LOT of marketing to entice riders to enter their horses as "Squeaky Clean" in one or two divisions (AO & AA?). Then of those, test (you pay) any who win - and award sponsorship $$$ accordingly.

    I envision some irate ammies who find out that their horse had some breakfast supplements they weren't aware of having a chat with trainer-god. :-)

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  13. #53
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    By the way, SMF11, what vodka? I live near/used to work at Golden Harvest in Valatie - CORE vodka!

    C
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Under current rules, testing is random and no sponsor, other individual or member of show managementmay participate in selection or dictate who is tested. You could run outside of USEF oversight with your own, private drug testers in a non recognized class.
    Thanks, that was my understanding as well. That does seem like a huge barrier then, since it would be unrecognized and exhibitors might be uncomfortable with non-USEF testers.



  15. #55
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    Default Another thing to consider if you sponsor riders as the "Squeaky Clean Team"

    Being an Alcohol manufacturer / Suppler, Even the riders need to be Squeaky Clean, No DUI's, No Drug Convictions, Preach personal responsibility..
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoronios View Post
    By the way, SMF11, what vodka? I live near/used to work at Golden Harvest in Valatie - CORE vodka!

    C
    Ha! You are very near me, I live in Millerton. The vodka doesn't yet exist, though we are starting tastings and working with a flavor company etc starting in a few weeks. So this is a bit premature . . . however, brainstorming is a good thing, I think. I've visited Harvest Spirits, btw. When we get going you'll have to come down for a taste!



  17. #57
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    OK, I think some posters have gone down a slight tangent. I do not think separate testing will work and so testing probably is not going to be a part of this sponsorship. Plus, as was pointed out, not everything is testable.

    It will not be the squeaky clean division. I *would* like to figure out how to do it so that I can avoid rewarding people who drug their horses so they are better behaved (so, no, joint injections or whatever would not be something I'd be concerned about).

    I really think the way to do that is to sponsor -- in some legal way, sorry I do not know the rules now, but most certainly will before we offer any $$ -- a team or some individuals. However, the purpose of this thread is to consult people who know more than I do to see if there are better ideas out there.

    Are there *any* "little guys" that show on the A circuit? Ones that keep their horses at home/do their own hauling and grooming etc?



  18. #58
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    Hmm,
    How about sponsoring an essay/proposal contest with the topic related to creating a level playing field, promoting drug free training, showing etc?

    Arrange to have the winning essay and runners up published (horse show magazine? Chronicle?) and announced at horse show of your choice maybe associated with a class you sponsor.

    You would need a suitably attractive prize (tack etc) and an appropriate slogan to put on banners, jumps etc 'Suchandsuch vodka - live life fully, play fair and drink responsibly...'

    Ok there is a good reason I am not in marketing but you get the idea. Get your name out there and associated with clean horse showing. Then you can use that to push the envelope to sponsorships, testing etc?



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