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  1. #121
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    It was intended to be facetious! Of course you can't do this (although it sure would have been interesting to test to mystery contents of the syringe in question at Devon). I agree with many of MVPs suggestions. But I still believe that the structure of the hunter competitions, the rewards/point system, and the judging standards are part of the equation.


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  2. #122
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    Anybody else have any meaningful thoughts or ideas to contribute before this slides off page 1?

    And thanks for the civilized discussion and exchange of ideas. Maybe somebody will take notice.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  3. #123
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    Short and sweet, what I think the USEF needs is to form an EMPOWERED committee on this issue comprised of "outsiders" from the normal USEF process (maybe mostly amateurs? but certainly someone who is currently not hobnobbing with the offenders). But that's very unlikely to happen because the fox is guarding the henhouse. We need some non-foxes to join the ranks.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Short and sweet, what I think the USEF needs is to form an EMPOWERED committee on this issue comprised of "outsiders" from the normal USEF process (maybe mostly amateurs? but certainly someone who is currently not hobnobbing with the offenders). But that's very unlikely to happen because the fox is guarding the henhouse. We need some non-foxes to join the ranks.
    Ah, but because the "foxes are guarding the hen house" it is quite difficult (almost impossible) to get on a committee or otherwise participate in a meaningful way with the governance of the association. I've tried.



  5. #125
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    Nov. 24, 2010
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    Santa Fe, NM
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    I am happy to see so many of us willing to discuss solutions. I doubt USEF, and even most people involved in big showing these days realize the devastating impact this conduct has on the sport's future. I train very young riders and young horses (mostly, not together) on a very small scale, but the kind of small supportive and reasonable outfit where almost every someday-rider gets their start. Even before Humble was killed, from back in my time grooming for rated shows, we saw what was happening in prep. We found it so distasteful (as equestrians) that I've entirely aimed my young riders and my green horses in other directions, for a decade now. I've talked to families of those kids who catch the bug and have the moxie to move up to a bigger barn about prep (all other sports call it doping) and all the other equestrian sport options. I've long thought this industry is going to poison itself from the inside. I am inspired to see so many of us feel that it might just have the gumption to fix itself....?
    At all times, we are either training or untraining.
    Flying Haflinger blog: http://flyinghaflinger.blogspot.com/ Flying Irish Draught blog: http://flyingirishredhead.blogspot.com/


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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Anybody else have any meaningful thoughts or ideas to contribute before this slides off page 1?
    I vote in favor of "The DMK Rule Change Proposals"!
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  7. #127
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    Jan. 21, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Practically speaking, a lot of people do not use the sharps containers, they have their own (or worse yet, use the trash). But IF that was a rule, and I was the sort of person who was going to medicate my horse with an illegal substance, I would probably be the sort to go dispose of my sharps in the container nearest to my least favorite fellow competitor.

    I still think the most effective steps are sometimes the easiest ones to do without twisting the rules into a gordian knot:

    1. Take a long hard look at the therapeutic rule because I'm still waiting for a good reason to have dex on it (and this comes from a person who has a headshaker and a chestnut that gets hives at the drop of a hat... valid reasons for wanting to compete with dex, I haz 'em).

    2. Test some of the top three placing horses in classes of randomly selected divisions along with random selection of horses. (meaning if one of the random divisions selected was the first years, then places 1-2-3 of any classes in that division would be subject to being tested).

    3. Testing blitz at one major show per year (awesome idea)

    4. Let people know that regardless of when a Mg test is developed and implemented, collected samples back to 1/1/13 (or even an earlier date) could be tested and prosecuted.

    5. Four (or some other number) strikes and you are out, and your suspensions back to 12/2011 count. Each successive suspension has an exponentially longer penalty. It shouldn't be mostly about the $$$ (other than paying for costs), it should be about not being able to show.

    6. A person who works for a trainer cannot sign as trainer, and if s/he does, it does not protect his boss from sharing in the punishment fully.

    7. If an animal dies on the grounds of a horse show, and the USEF investigates that death, you have to participate fully and may be suspended for failure to facilitate that investigation.

    8. Revise hunter judging standards, possibly using something like the peanut roller standard that the AQHA used to clean up judging (admittedly flawed, but at least they actively tried to change judging standards).

    9. At least evaluate the FEI rider rule - This is something I personally don't (eta "don't") support because not being in a full training situation and employing a catch rider is the way a lot of less wealthy people play in this game, and this would undermine it completely - but it at least needs to be discussed and considered.

    ********

    I looked at the proposed rules, and other than the long overdue removal of the word "freshness" from the list of major faults in a hunter round (yay!), I didn't see anything particularly exciting. But some of these things are not strictly codified, so if the USEF wanted to do them, they might not show up there. Still, there wasn't a lot in the proposed rules that signaled a need for core changes from my (admittedly quickish) reading. That was disappointing.
    Great post!


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  8. #128
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    Aug. 11, 2002
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    I posted is on the other thread too, but can repost here:

    What I don't understand is why the protest system is set up the way it is for things like alleged drug violations.

    Granted it governs athlete doping in humans, but the US Anti-Doping Agency (which manages all Olympic and Olympic-Development athletes, even in off seasons ("out of competition testing")) has an Play Clean ANONYMOUS HOT LINE and even provides an anonymous report box online where you can submit your report in your pajamas at 2 AM if you'd like (http://www.usada.org/playclean).

    No need to pay a fee, no need to be publicly identified (or shamed!), etc.

    Yes, some may argue such a system promotes dubious reporting of others out of jealousy or for some competitive edge, but you'd think Olympic athletes would have the same problems (and they haven't), no?

    Why is USEF so afraid to set up an anonymous "Play Clean" hotline? Or online report submission box? Or fee-free reporting system? Or provide members with a drug reference phone line to consult on whether something is okay (or not) (http://www.usada.org/drugline/)? Or an ombudsman (http://www.usada.org/usoc-athlete-ombudsman/)?

    Do you realize how this looks to the outside? To report another competitor of a violation you have to PAY A FEE. Your name is public. Talk about a system that exists to protect the inner circle.

    (Then again, this is the same organization that gave a slap on the wrist to a top hunter trainer for drug infractions and then just put his picture on the cover of their organizational magazine (IN THE SAME YEAR). Did you forget? You can refresh your memory here: http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...ePenalties.pdf

    So maybe that's all you need to know about this club of our's).


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  9. #129
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    Aug. 11, 2002
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    For some reason (am I jinxed!?) my USEF Administrative penalty link didn't work. Try this instead: http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...ePenalties.pdf



  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston the Corgi View Post
    For some reason (am I jinxed!?) my USEF Administrative penalty link didn't work. Try this instead: http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...ePenalties.pdf
    Off topic, but I just love your user name. My boy corgi was originally named Winston, but my daughter changed it to Douglas as Winston was to regal for him.



  11. #131
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    USADA is also part of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) too and I believe all athletes that compete nationally and internationally have to comply with their strict anti-doping requirements. Look what happened to Lance Armstrong? Seven years after he won his last Tour de France, USADA publishes a report made up of tesimony from other racers and they have stripped him of all his wins. Eventhough he tested clean when he was doing those races. All our trainers get is a measly fine and a few months suspension. Granted it is horses, not people, but horses have no choice what we put into their systems, while humans make the choice for themselves.


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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by PonyPenny View Post
    Off topic, but I just love your user name. My boy corgi was originally named Winston, but my daughter changed it to Douglas as Winston was to regal for him.
    Awwe, thanks. My beloved Winston (the corgi, obviously!) was the best. He is now enjoying doggie heaven after a very long life of mischief .



  13. #133
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    OK one more point here.

    The "hot line" idea is fine but who the heck will pull and review the messages and...then what? There is nothing in place to allow this or follow up on it. To change that there would need to be...a committee, legal review, possible rule changes, new investigative powers, change in the charter or whatever they operate under...don't hold your breath.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  14. #134
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    Should point out that the FEI hired a special person in the UK as an independent contractor to handle drugging allegations. He has expertise. Not sure if he's still on board, but you would contact him with drug issues/questions at the FEI level. I think he "filtered" the information and then forwarded the ones he thought needed answers to the FEI. His email was posted on the FEI site and anyone could contact him. He was very quick to respond, and so was the FEI to the things he forwarded.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  15. #135
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    Dec. 9, 2012
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    I'm not sure if others have already posted these ideas since I don't have time to read 7 pages but here it goes!

    I am a dressage rider/competitor. I have found drug testing to be very relevant as I have yet to be tested, but 4 out of my 10 close competing friends have been tested in the past 3 years. Some twice! That's enough to make me whip out a calculator and calculate bute amounts if I ever need to use it. I also check and double-check supplements and their ingredients.

    Why is it so difficult to test more frequently? And the consequences should certainly relate to "Humble Law". It should have a title that hits emotions.

    Hopefully a change is coming soon as this certainly caused an uproar. I mean, NY Times?!?! Yikes! The industry will lose potential competitors with that!



  16. #136
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    The problem is not with the amount of testing, they catch a fair number.

    The problem is lax penalties for repeat offenders, poor release of hearing results and information to the general membership and only if they look for it...just in case somebody wanted to check a trainers record before sending horses to them. No procedure for dealing with dead horses or those that collapse while on the showgrounds. Unless somebody pays 500 to protest, has to go public and in this case loses the 500 and the protest involving the dead Pony and gets slapped with a civil suit for opening her mouth to question the death.

    Heck, get caught 3 times in a year and you might even get 2 national magazine covers praising your record.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  17. #137
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    That's absolutely ridiculous... The trainer who killed Humble should have been arrested for animal cruelty! She killed the poor pony! No one should be allowed to show if caught more than 3 times. Period. There should be an online directory of drug results too. This is absurd. I had no idea they didn't even win the civil suit!



  18. #138
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    Actually, we don't know what killed Humble, the actual COD. There is nothing in place at USEF that requires any investigation or disclosure. Nothing to protect a protester from civil suit either. It was her own Pony and therefore her choice what to disclose or not under most state laws. the Pa state police were involved but no charges have been filed.

    I am trying to keep the thread on a constructive track with suggestions to avoid a repeat and get something fairly uncomplicated and inexpensive in place for the dead or collapsed horse or Pony on the showgrounds during a USEF regulated event. Name calling doesn't help.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  19. #139
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    [QUOTE=kmmoran;6763615]
    I am a dressage rider/competitor. I have found drug testing to be very relevant as I have yet to be tested, but 4 out of my 10 close competing friends have been tested in the past 3 years. Some twice! That's enough to make me whip out a calculator and calculate bute amounts if I ever need to use it. I also check and double-check supplements and their ingredients.
    /QUOTE]

    IMO, you taking extra care to get your bute dosing right is one of the intended consequences of the D&M rules. Their purpose is to prevent the misuse of drugs for all horses at all times. If any of us gets "legal" because we see what happens when folks are not, then the rules are doing their job.

    It should not be considered "the cost of doing business" to have some D&M infractions to your name.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Let me add that, when the lights do get turned on, the roaches do scatter. So horses/ponies that are scratched late when the testers show up at ANY show should be subject to the random selection to test process. Show can supply complete list of expected entries (you know, like is PUBLICALLY posted on the board by the office and usually at each in gate well in advance). All entries may be tested. They can actually do that now IIRC but never seen that.

    Right now the testers stand at the out gate in their little white coats with the stick and cup and snag the winner and one at random as they exit the ring or catch you at the outgate after your last jumping round. So if you scratch and don't show up? Out of sight, out of mind. Many have noted certain barns have alot of late scratches as routine procedure when the testers arrive. It is somewhat of a joke.

    I don't see any extra cost in that or it opening any doors to being sued. Dont even need to test any more horses, just include one that scratched as a possibility. They CAN test anything entered as I understand the rules as they now stand. Might need a bodyguard going back to the barns to chase down a scratch tho...or be sure to properly ID the animal as the one selected
    Just a quick question, what do the amateurs and juniors who are suddenly forced to scratch when their trainers see the testers come in think of having to pay the scratch fee? Do they know why they're suddenly not showing?



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