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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
    Good suggestions - however, 99.9% of what you saw in those syringes lying around at indoors was not testable or absolutely legal. Humble did not test positive for anything illegal and nothing on the cell phone pic of the med list was illegal at certain doses - nor would mag tested positive (if that is what was given). Yes, a surprise blitz would be something to show the USEF actually cares but it would not solve the problem- people would just be more careful to stay within current limits and use nontestable substances otherwise.

    I assume (and I am not a scientist) that although you cannot test for mag in a horse's blood from a practical POV, because it's a naturally occuring substance and you can't prove how it entered the bloodstream-- if you tested a trace from a syringe-- you could test for mag in the SYRINGE. And given that there's no theraputic reason to inject IV mag in a competing horse-- you'd have a rule violation if you could prove mag was what was in the syringe. Yes? No? That's how I interpret the rules.
    ~Veronica
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    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  2. #102
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    Is Elizabeth Mandarino now writing for USEF regarding protests? She uses the USEF logo and is the author of an article, "The Facts About USEF Protests & What USEF Members Should Know".

    Here's the link: http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...ould_Know.html
    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    We have no intentions of tarring and feathering anyone: this is now a thread about dipping Ryan Reynolds in chocolate.



  3. #103
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    http://lifeinthefastlane.com/book/cr...ugs/magnesium/

    Interesting reading if you go all the way to the end and see the most life threatening reaction to Mag.
    For clarification, the web site is regarding critical care (in people).
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


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  4. #104
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    Even before the NYTimes article -- at least one professional was addressing these issues -- here is the link to an outstanding article by Julie Winkel

    http://www.proequest.com/news/2012/1...ter-revolution


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    Even before the NYTimes article -- at least one professional was addressing these issues -- here is the link to an outstanding article by Julie Winkel

    http://www.proequest.com/news/2012/1...ter-revolution



  6. #106
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    But here's an idea: Have the drug testers pull the sharps containers (required at every show), not the location of each container (what barn they were found) and test the contents of the syringes. If banned substances are found, then test the horses from that barn at the next show they attend. Wouldn't that produce interesting results!
    Bolding mine, I have actually been suggesting this ever since they started requiring sharps containers. Of course it wouldnt take long for nothing to end up in them once that became practice.
    Practically speaking, a lot of people do not use the sharps containers, they have their own (or worse yet, use the trash). But IF that was a rule, and I was the sort of person who was going to medicate my horse with an illegal substance, I would probably be the sort to go dispose of my sharps in the container nearest to my least favorite fellow competitor.

    I still think the most effective steps are sometimes the easiest ones to do without twisting the rules into a gordian knot:

    1. Take a long hard look at the therapeutic rule because I'm still waiting for a good reason to have dex on it (and this comes from a person who has a headshaker and a chestnut that gets hives at the drop of a hat... valid reasons for wanting to compete with dex, I haz 'em).

    2. Test some of the top three placing horses in classes of randomly selected divisions along with random selection of horses. (meaning if one of the random divisions selected was the first years, then places 1-2-3 of any classes in that division would be subject to being tested).

    3. Testing blitz at one major show per year (awesome idea)

    4. Let people know that regardless of when a Mg test is developed and implemented, collected samples back to 1/1/13 (or even an earlier date) could be tested and prosecuted.

    5. Four (or some other number) strikes and you are out, and your suspensions back to 12/2011 count. Each successive suspension has an exponentially longer penalty. It shouldn't be mostly about the $$$ (other than paying for costs), it should be about not being able to show.

    6. A person who works for a trainer cannot sign as trainer, and if s/he does, it does not protect his boss from sharing in the punishment fully.

    7. If an animal dies on the grounds of a horse show, and the USEF investigates that death, you have to participate fully and may be suspended for failure to facilitate that investigation.

    8. Revise hunter judging standards, possibly using something like the peanut roller standard that the AQHA used to clean up judging (admittedly flawed, but at least they actively tried to change judging standards).

    9. At least evaluate the FEI rider rule - This is something I personally don't (eta "don't") support because not being in a full training situation and employing a catch rider is the way a lot of less wealthy people play in this game, and this would undermine it completely - but it at least needs to be discussed and considered.

    ********

    I looked at the proposed rules, and other than the long overdue removal of the word "freshness" from the list of major faults in a hunter round (yay!), I didn't see anything particularly exciting. But some of these things are not strictly codified, so if the USEF wanted to do them, they might not show up there. Still, there wasn't a lot in the proposed rules that signaled a need for core changes from my (admittedly quickish) reading. That was disappointing.
    Last edited by DMK; Jan. 2, 2013 at 05:00 PM. Reason: oops - one missing don't kind of changes things!
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Practically speaking, a lot of people do not use the sharps containers, they have their own (or worse yet, use the trash). But IF that was a rule, and I was the sort of person who was going to medicate my horse with an illegal substance, I would probably be the sort to go dispose of my sharps in the container nearest to my least favorite fellow competitor.

    I still think the most effective steps are sometimes the easiest ones to do without twisting the rules into a gordian knot:

    1. Take a long hard look at the therapeutic rule because I'm still waiting for a good reason to have dex on it (and this comes from a person who has a headshaker and a chestnut that gets hives at the drop of a hat... valid reasons for wanting to compete with dex, I haz 'em).

    2. Test some of the top three placing horses in classes of randomly selected divisions along with random selection of horses. (meaning if one of the random divisions selected was the first years, then places 1-2-3 of any classes in that division would be subject to being tested).

    3. Testing blitz at one major show per year (awesome idea)

    4. Let people know that regardless of when a Mg test is developed and implemented, collected samples back to 1/1/13 (or even an earlier date) could be tested and prosecuted.

    5. Four (or some other number) strikes and you are out, and your suspensions back to 12/2011 count. Each successive suspension has an exponentially longer penalty. It shouldn't be mostly about the $$$ (other than paying for costs), it should be about not being able to show.

    6. A person who works for a trainer cannot sign as trainer, and if s/he does, it does not protect his boss from sharing in the punishment fully.

    7. If an animal dies on the grounds of a horse show, and the USEF investigates that death, you have to participate fully and may be suspended for failure to facilitate that investigation.

    8. Revise hunter judging standards, possibly using something like the peanut roller standard that the AQHA used to clean up judging (admittedly flawed, but at least they actively tried to change judging standards).

    9. At least evaluate the FEI rider rule - This is something I personally support because not being in a full training situation and employing a catch rider is the way a lot of less wealthy people play in this game, and this would undermine it completely - but it at least needs to be discussed and considered.

    ********

    I looked at the proposed rules, and other than the long overdue removal of the word "freshness" from the list of major faults in a hunter round (yay!), I didn't see anything particularly exciting. But some of these things are not strictly codified, so if the USEF wanted to do them, they might not show up there. Still, there wasn't a lot in the proposed rules that signaled a need for core changes from my (admittedly quickish) reading. That was disappointing.
    I completely agree with the above!
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Practically speaking, a lot of people do not use the sharps containers, they have their own (or worse yet, use the trash). But IF that was a rule, and I was the sort of person who was going to medicate my horse with an illegal substance, I would probably be the sort to go dispose of my sharps in the container nearest to my least favorite fellow competitor.

    I still think the most effective steps are sometimes the easiest ones to do without twisting the rules into a gordian knot:

    1. Take a long hard look at the therapeutic rule because I'm still waiting for a good reason to have dex on it (and this comes from a person who has a headshaker and a chestnut that gets hives at the drop of a hat... valid reasons for wanting to compete with dex, I haz 'em).

    2. Test some of the top three placing horses in classes of randomly selected divisions along with random selection of horses. (meaning if one of the random divisions selected was the first years, then places 1-2-3 of any classes in that division would be subject to being tested).

    3. Testing blitz at one major show per year (awesome idea)

    4. Let people know that regardless of when a Mg test is developed and implemented, collected samples back to 1/1/13 (or even an earlier date) could be tested and prosecuted.

    5. Four (or some other number) strikes and you are out, and your suspensions back to 12/2011 count. Each successive suspension has an exponentially longer penalty. It shouldn't be mostly about the $$$ (other than paying for costs), it should be about not being able to show.

    6. A person who works for a trainer cannot sign as trainer, and if s/he does, it does not protect his boss from sharing in the punishment fully.

    7. If an animal dies on the grounds of a horse show, and the USEF investigates that death, you have to participate fully and may be suspended for failure to facilitate that investigation.

    8. Revise hunter judging standards, possibly using something like the peanut roller standard that the AQHA used to clean up judging (admittedly flawed, but at least they actively tried to change judging standards).

    9. At least evaluate the FEI rider rule - This is something I personally support because not being in a full training situation and employing a catch rider is the way a lot of less wealthy people play in this game, and this would undermine it completely - but it at least needs to be discussed and considered.

    ********

    I looked at the proposed rules, and other than the long overdue removal of the word "freshness" from the list of major faults in a hunter round (yay!), I didn't see anything exciting. But some of these things are not strictly codified, so if the USEF wanted to do them, they might not show up there. Still, there wasn't a lot in the proposed rules that signaled a need for core changes from my (admittedly quickish) reading. That was disappointing.

    Very good ideas! And add to this, if a horse dies during a competitIon, blood must be pulled immediately by the horse show vet.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Good thoughts DMK, as usual. Most not requiring any draconian change in exsisting rules.

    I go for 3 strikes and you are O.U.T. as that is part of our culture. Particularly if they occur within a short time frame.

    I do think we will be lucky to get an advisory committee investigating (at a snails pace) use of therapeutic drugs in various combinations.

    But we have to propose starting somewhere even it never will be perfect, we always will have cheats and those who care nothing for the welfare of the horse. At least it deals with collapsing or dropping dead animals competing under their jurisdiction. Or tries to anyway.

    Requiring a blood pull ASAP on a dead or collapsed horse seems like a no brainer one would think the owner and trainer would want done to see what happened....unless they already knew in which case they would be the first in line standing up to object vigorously to implementing this or any similar requirement.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I assume (and I am not a scientist) that although you cannot test for mag in a horse's blood from a practical POV, because it's a naturally occuring substance and you can't prove how it entered the bloodstream-- if you tested a trace from a syringe-- you could test for mag in the SYRINGE. And given that there's no theraputic reason to inject IV mag in a competing horse-- you'd have a rule violation if you could prove mag was what was in the syringe. Yes? No? That's how I interpret the rules.
    And I assume that Mag "works" as a calming agent when it is used in high concentrations. IMO, that's also why injecting to too fast makes the horse kaput.

    Depending on the amount that's effective and it's "half-life" in a horse's blood stream, I think you could make the Blitzkreig drug raid work. Here, the D&M committee would specify and acceptable threshold for circulating blood levels of Mag at the time of the class. Depending on that bit of biology (how much is excessive and when), you test when cheaters' horses are most likely to have those levels-- either early AM or closer to the division.

    The "Will Not Test" thing is a bit of a red herring.... unless we are talking about drugs that are effective in exceptionally small amounts. BTY, this has been a problem with some long-acting drugs, yet the D&M committee did develop a test.

    So just about everything *will* test--- if you pour money on the problem by deciding when and how to test, or the traditional way, where toxicologists devise new tests to work for whatever is the new designer drug.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  11. #111
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    I don't think you needs loads of mag for calming but I am neither a vet nor a drugger so I don't know for sure. I understand that the amount used for calming is not in excess of the normal variation occuring in equine blood. It's the speed of introducing it, not the volume, that "works." I am happy to be corrected by someone with more pharmacology knowledge.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limerick View Post
    Very good ideas! And add to this, if a horse dies during a competitIon, blood must be pulled immediately by the horse show vet.
    And the owner and trainer should not be allowed to flee the showgrounds until all of the syringes have been confiscated!


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Depending on the amount that's effective and it's "half-life" in a horse's blood stream, I think you could make the Blitzkreig drug raid work. Here, the D&M committee would specify and acceptable threshold for circulating blood levels of Mag at the time of the class. Depending on that bit of biology (how much is excessive and when), you test when cheaters' horses are most likely to have those levels-- either early AM or closer to the division.
    I think that is a good idea. The only problem is the testers are usually present and pick you out after ribbons are awarded or after coming out of the ring, so they already do this to some degree. And as far as Mag goes, after a horse has done 2 rounds and a hack and waited around a fair bit of time at the back gate, the blood concentration level will have probably gone down by the time they are tested. It would be interesting to test horses randomly before they show, or even randomly when they are back at the barns. But I'm not sure how the testers would know which horse was what, since horses are not required to be kept in assigned stalls.
    ******
    "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
    -H.M.E.


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    And I assume that Mag "works" as a calming agent when it is used in high concentrations. IMO, that's also why injecting to too fast makes the horse kaput.
    Yep. This is a standard method of how we kill animals under anesthesia.



  15. #115
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    Default One other item to add to the list of rules...

    ANY vet caught offering the latest designer drug, (that won't test) loses their ability or USEF approval to be the horse show vet of record...

    Why not make it more difficult for acquiring the latest and greatest cheat. The lose of approval can also mean suspension as a competitor if they also compete...
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers.
    http://bluemoongrafixva.webs.com


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandprixjump View Post
    ANY vet caught offering the latest designer drug, (that won't test) loses their ability or USEF approval to be the horse show vet of record...

    Why not make it more difficult for acquiring the latest and greatest cheat. The lose of approval can also mean suspension as a competitor if they also compete...
    I have a friend who was the show vet at a show that ran the finals for a medal class associated with a state-wide group. She does not approve of unnecessary drugging. A trainer came up to her truck and asked for dex. She asked to see the horse. The trainer said something about the horse having bumps and couldn't she just hand over the dex. She refused. The trainer then whined, "but it's medal finals." My friend stood firm. I don't know how many times this scenario played out over the course of the show. She was the show vet for a few more years after that, but I assume people learned that this show was BYOD.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
    I have a friend who was the show vet at a show that ran the finals for a medal class associated with a state-wide group. She does not approve of unnecessary drugging. A trainer came up to her truck and asked for dex. She asked to see the horse. The trainer said something about the horse having bumps and couldn't she just hand over the dex. She refused. The trainer then whined, "but it's medal finals." My friend stood firm. I don't know how many times this scenario played out over the course of the show. She was the show vet for a few more years after that, but I assume people learned that this show was BYOD.
    This sounds like a great show vet. But there are vets out there that openly sell and provide items with little or no therapeutic value for the purpose of cheating. These vets need to be shut out, and not promoted as horse show vets by the USEF... JG comes to mind ...
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers.
    http://bluemoongrafixva.webs.com



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandprixjump View Post
    This sounds like a great show vet. But there are vets out there that openly sell and provide items with little or no therapeutic value for the purpose of cheating. These vets need to be shut out, and not promoted as horse show vets by the USEF... JG comes to mind ...
    Agree....we have a show manager/company that uses a vet known to have sold Carolina Gold and had Judy's Tack Shop supply the championship coolers for the SE medal finals. In case somebody missed it, the owner of Judy's tack shop just pleaded no contest to grand theft of some saddles at HITS Ocala last March....and they issued a press release saying how proud they were to have Judy's supply those coolers. Can't they find a tack shop owner that doesn't have an arrest record to purchase the coolers from? Unbelieveable. The principle of that company is or was the chair of the USHJA show management committee. What are they thinking? I know what I'm thinking...never again to show with a firm that keeps that type of company.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by adhock View Post
    And the owner and trainer should not be allowed to flee the showgrounds until all of the syringes have been confiscated!
    It won't make a difference. And it will be impossible to collect all syringes at a show grounds.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  20. #120
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    I do not get the logistics of the collecting syringes idea really.
    Do people really think the trainers keep them all neat in a row in case they are asked for them?



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