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  1. #21
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    Sadly, I have been told this by more than one judge. The situation is likely exacerbated by having more and more shows folded into fewer and fewer management teams so the judges really can't afford to piss people off.

    While I agree that there needs to be a change in judging, it needs to come via changes in standards from above (via a rule change?) as opposed to individuals making a brave stand.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
    Sadly, I have been told this by more than one judge. The situation is likely exacerbated by having more and more shows folded into fewer and fewer management teams so the judges really can't afford to piss people off.

    While I agree that there needs to be a change in judging, it needs to come via changes in standards from above (via a rule change?) as opposed to individuals making a brave stand.
    And many times the brave stand is a person willing to work for change from the inside, holding to their ideas and values.

    Change comes from all areas and it takes the effort of only a few knowledgable people INSIDE the system to begin.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    And many times the brave stand is a person willing to work for change from the inside, holding to their ideas and values.

    Change comes from all areas and it takes the effort of only a few knowledgable people INSIDE the system to begin.
    Well said....

    What about a petition asking for change .... Details to be determined



  4. #24
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    the brave person had better be independantly wealthy.....just saying
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    the brave person had better be independantly wealthy.....just saying
    Or foolish.... Because..... What are the consequences?

    So.... Strength in numbers then?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    Perhaps it is time for the "Humble Initiative" to be born? In every facet of the equine world, drugs are common. Some folks have been caught, fined and prohibited from showing at USEF sanctioned shows for a period of time. Even some big famous names have been sanctioned. So, what is the solution? A vet at every USDF sanctioned show who tests randomly and openly thru out the show? That's gonna be expensive. Perhaps on the entry form there is a place for "vet fee" that pays for that veternarian's time and testing materials? As already mentioned, the crux of the Mandarino investigation is that she would not comply with USEF when they asked for information from her. She is not banned from USEF either. Can she be prosecuted by the courts? If so, the District Attorney would have to bring the charges, she goes before a Grand Jury and has her day in court. If she is found guilty, then USEF could ban her as they did Barney Ward. USEF didn't ban him until the court system ran its course as I recall, memory a bit sketchy. How to weed out unethical trainers? Each of us has to be observant, very observant. Phones have video cameras. There is so much of this going on, at USEF shows and non USEF shows. I haven't witnessed it personally but if I did, I would file a complaint with USEF and sing like a canary to anyone who would listen. It's time to develop a group of folks that are USEF members to draft a rule change about drugging horses. Oh sure, there is a list of drugs one cannot use at a show or within a certain timeframe before horse competes. USEF has to police its shows. Either the membership picks up the tab or USEF does...at every single show....unannounced! Vet shows up...and starts walking thru the barn and says, pull out every horse, I'm taking blood, now! If those who're un-ethical start to realize that at every show there will be testing...perhaps, just perhaps they might want to consider what they are doing. I don't know the answer, I just know that Ms. Mandarino got away with the death of a pony under her supervision.....kinda like OJ Simpson except he's in jail so there is karma....


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    the brave person had better be independantly wealthy.....just saying
    Sorry, doesn't fly with me. I ain't wealthy and I still join the fight. If I can do it, then anybody can because I am not different than you all.

    If what you are saying is that the system is so corrupt that horse show managers have all the control to the point of how trainers train so that the "appropriate" judges will place the horses, then the system should be completely destroyed as it is no better than the FEI and IOC.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    There needs to be a way to make a report of wrong doing for free and without giving your name. That won't solve all the problems of course but would be a start.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    There needs to be a way to make a report of wrong doing for free and without giving your name. That won't solve all the problems of course but would be a start.

    But that opens up a whole 'nother mess. Think of how well the red thumbs experiment went here? I'm not so sure anonymity would be a good thing, as it might invite false accusations just due to grudges and dislike.


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  10. #30
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    I remember when Penn National created an anonymous program where you could make a report of abuse to the state racing commission. I called the number once and they said no one was there to help me at the moment but if I left my name and number someone would call me back! I said I would do that but begged them not to ask anyone else to do that in the future as it would defeat the purpose of an anonymous tip line.



  11. #31
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    Reed, you have a real job and are not a trainer, nor a hunter judge. If that is how you make a living it gets a bit more complicated.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    Reed, you have a real job and are not a trainer, nor a hunter judge. If that is how you make a living it gets a bit more complicated.
    The answer to the judge's dilemma is very simple. Have a list of all licensed judges on a rotating roster at the USEF. Have the USEF send a list of the top (say) three to show management when the show signs up; then let management choose one of the three. Model it after the arbitration/mediation system in law. If the USEF keeps the rosters, it can control potential judge time conflicts. The American Arbitration Association has been providing "private" judges for well over half a century. Use it for a model.


    Judge needed in an emergency--USEF selects, not the show.

    The USEF, not the discipline affiliates, HAS to be the organization over judging and horse welfare. Fairness is the overarching principle in both.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  13. #33
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    Wow, good job guys. What I have always liked about COTH is there can be some good and well thought out discussion.

    My thoughts on the responses so far? And speaking of repeat violators here, not first offenders as mistakes can happen and I am in no way against therapeutic uses in moniterd amounts and time frame. Also see the need for competent persons responsible for a horse 24/7 to give IV injections or controlled substances. But not like what some are doing now.

    IMO we have the rules and we see alot named for violating them. But there is little or no effect when penalities for owners are less then the cost of one division and a stall and the owners can keep right on going via an arrangement with another trainer. It's their horse and they pay the bills, including "meds" or "supplements" and the trainers charges. If they faced loss of points in any and all divisions the horse competed and earned them in and suspension? They might get alot more interested in what is actually being given-at their expense-to their horse.

    Besides increasing the penalties (which I am not sure is a member initiated rule change procedure), we have a huge problem with the protest procedure. And I am sick and tired of "people will make frivolous protests" when we are talking welfare of the horse which is supposed to be the paramount goal behind the USEF rules. If anybody should be held blameless here it is the protestor, leasee of the Pony who paid the bills (including "meds") and watched that Pony die. She should have standing to protest, ask for an investigation and be protected from legal action.

    I also think some who have not been in a serious circuit environment may not be aware how nasty some folks can get when they feel you are threatening their livelyhood. Seen it everywhere from competitive local unrated circuits to QHs to Ayrabs and H/J. They can get vindictive, property can be vandalized and even horses put at risk (manes or tails cut, india ink dumped on a paint). They can also pressure show managemant not to hire anybody who speaks out, in any capacity. They can make sure a braider walks out to 2 flats and never gets hired again too. Whistle blowers don't fare well in any industry.

    It's complicated and change has to come from above.

    Finally, what the hell is up with the ethics of some of these vets? Most of the stuff sore horses get pumped up with are controlled substances, supposedly needing vet involvement. Then you get the ones handling "spechul" preps while serving as show vets.

    USEF has rules for this-it's time to put some teeth in them and step up to protest the horses and our sport.

    Carry on.

    mroades, can you clean out your pm inbox?
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post

    Finally, what the hell is up with the ethics of some of these vets? Most of the stuff sore horses get pumped up with are controlled substances, supposedly needing vet involvement. Then you get the ones handling "spechul" preps while serving as show vets.

    USEF has rules for this-it's time to put some teeth in them and step up to protest the horses and our sport.

    Carry on.

    mroades, can you clean out your pm inbox?
    The root of the problem (other than the win at all costs...) is the vets who are willing to make these medications available for trainers to use without proper diagnosis. For my little part, I just wrote the American Vet Association and the executive director of the New Jersey Vet Association asking what they are doing to control the amount of medications sold by vets to trainers citing the NYT article. Probably won't hear anything back, but at least I started some line of questioning. (Wrote the NJ guy since that's where Humble's home barn is and figured that's where the meds were "prescribed" for lack of a better term.)


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  15. #35
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    I disagree with the call for more rules; that is the ubiquitous refrain of the irresponsible. Consider Mr. Long's explanation, which is perplexing if not untrue. The USEF does have the authority to discipline a member for "unethical," "dishonest," or "unsportsmanlike" acts that are prejudicial to the sport or Federation. See GR 702(1)(d), which reads in part:

    1. A violation is any act prejudicial to the best interests of the Federation, including but not limited to the following:
    d. Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the Federation.

    Killing her pony and fleeing the scene sound unethical and unsportsmanlike to me and have proven to be prejudicial to the sport. The failure of Ms. Mandarino to turn over documents sure sounds "dishonest."

    Her lack of cooperation does not stymie the USEF's ability to prove her guilt. Instead, her suppression of information requested by the governing body points to her guilt. Her failure to appear at her hearing to defend herself also permits an adverse inference to be taken in support of the allegations in the protest. The USEF, not a state criminal court, was perfectly free to conclude the allegations in the protest were correct and to punish Ms. Mandarino. The USEF certainly could have "deemed" her actions "improper" under GR702, given the circumstances and her lack of defense. The USEF was not handcuffed and is capable with current rules to police itself.

    The USEF should have followed their current rules and kicked her out for playing games and embarrassing the sport. Before calling for more rules, the "correct" contours of which no can seem to articulate, the USEF should do a better job of obeying and enforcing the current rules. Otherwise violations of the new Humble Rule will be equally ignored.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    Reed, you have a real job and are not a trainer, nor a hunter judge. If that is how you make a living it gets a bit more complicated.
    I hear what you are saying....but...I, for one, would be the first one in the barn of a hunter trainer who stood up for the horses and helped change the system if I am able to afford a BNT's board and training
    Adriane
    Happily retired but used to be:
    www.ParrotNutz.com


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackpud View Post
    The root of the problem (other than the win at all costs...) is the vets who are willing to make these medications available for trainers to use without proper diagnosis. For my little part, I just wrote the American Vet Association and the executive director of the New Jersey Vet Association asking what they are doing to control the amount of medications sold by vets to trainers citing the NYT article. Probably won't hear anything back, but at least I started some line of questioning. (Wrote the NJ guy since that's where Humble's home barn is and figured that's where the meds were "prescribed" for lack of a better term.)
    Good Idea...could you PM or post here who and where to write in NJ. I have witnessed meds being handed out without the horse being diagnosed as needing the med. Let me say...not by my present vets or trainers since I post here under my real name, lol. As of 8 months ago I no longer have my horse or will have any horse shown in the hunters, as much as I love a good hunter :-(
    Adriane
    Happily retired but used to be:
    www.ParrotNutz.com



  18. #38
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    And Adriane I would love nothing more, but reality is just not that simple.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


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  19. #39
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    In many states the dispensing of quantities of prescription meds (as in a bottle of ace or a bottle of trimeth/sulfa tablets) just for the horse owner or trainer "to have on hand" is a violation of the state practice act.

    In that case, you need to complain to the state board of veterinary medicine.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    In many states the dispensing of quantities of prescription meds (as in a bottle of ace or a bottle of trimeth/sulfa tablets) just for the horse owner or trainer "to have on hand" is a violation of the state practice act.

    In that case, you need to complain to the state board of veterinary medicine.
    And this is one of the side effects of too much regulation; I for one believe that in most situations, I would rather have antibiotice or sedation on hand, than be in a situation in an emergency and its a holiday or AAEP week and not be able to properly handle something because I can't get a vet out. And it HAS HAPPENED (where there were no vets available)
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


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