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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    Yes it infuriates me, but throwing myself on the sword will only result in my guts being spilled, the hordes of mommies and daddies who only care about winning might slip in them for a moment, but most of them wouldnt even notice. When I tell a kid they can't show because they arent ready, I get fired or the kid leaves for someone who will tell them they can.
    I am not trying to sound so intractable, but I have been a trainer for 30 years, and have seen firsthand many, many times what happens when you stick your neck out. I did that in 2001 and have still not recovered from it.
    mroades, can you explain how the Purist Judges get shown the door by show management?

    So you don't get invited back because you reward the "wrong" horses or type of performance.

    And that happens because a quorum of BNTs says to Show Management, that you are doing it wrong?

    I thought that the point of the licensing system was to insure that you were doing it Officially Right such that those who didn't pin under you didn't have a whole lot of power.

    I do like the idea of the USEF giving show managers a choice of 3 judges on a rotating basis and allowing them to choose. That injects some impartiality into a sport where judges really are embroiled in conflicts of interest that naturally come with the territory of people who become expert judges precisely because they are experienced horse trainers and (as often as not), horse traders.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    No, I did that in another job and I am still trying to recover. Before that, I did it and became untouchable in the corporation. That is my point. Sometimes you have to be willing to take the bullet to stand up to your own values. And, guess what, if lots of folks stand up, then the horse shows have no choice.
    It's a big bullet for a horse trainer who has spent his/her entire professional life doing this job. The pros I know who have mid-life crises and wonder if they'd like to leave the profession have a hard time getting out and often don't unless they have another source of income. The retooling needed to do something else is this is what you have done since you were 18, or since you went to college is huge.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    It's a big bullet for a horse trainer who has spent his/her entire professional life doing this job. The pros I know who have mid-life crises and wonder if they'd like to leave the profession have a hard time getting out and often don't unless they have another source of income. The retooling needed to do something else is this is what you have done since you were 18, or since you went to college is huge.
    This is true for any of us in midlife who want to or find it necessary to change careers. I work in special education where we are governed by extensive, detailed federal and state regulations. However, there are still school administrators that will demand that their teachers follow illegal direction. If you refuse or say anything, good luck finding another job. I spent a full year unemployed as a result so I know what I am talking about. Standing up for what is right has pretty significant consequences everywhere. We just have to decide what we personally can and cannot live with.
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    mroades, can you explain how the Purist Judges get shown the door by show management?

    So you don't get invited back because you reward the "wrong" horses or type of performance.
    I can answer that one, somebody with 40+ horses on a circuit that did not do well under a particular lesser known judge drops a hint to management that they have been thinking about another circuit 3 states over on conflicting dates where they might do better with all 40+ horses. Or, all of theirs schedualed in a particular judges ring develop temoporary tummy aches and sore feet and scratch.

    Thing about whistle blowing here is it's fine to stand up alone and take the slings and arrows...but others around you are going to catch those arrows too. Like your trainer, your clients, barn employees etc. Not going to be too many ribbons coming the way of anybody in a whistle blowers barn, not going to find it easy to sell top dollar horses, get good prices to buy them or for the help to get another position. Might be some ugly rumors floated about by unknown sources too. Sure as heck not going to get any judge or steward jobs.

    We need to USEF to follow their own rules and grow a set as far as penalties for exsisting rules or watch the sport fade. IMO most trainers do realize that but some are too dam greedy and power hungry to realize they are dooming themselves.

    Oh, it's not just USEF or H/J either. Don't kid yourself.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    The Last few posts are really disappointing. Basically - you guys are saying things won't change and they won't change because none of us can afford the risk of starting the change. USEF and USHJA are not going to be the change -- after all look at what happened with the USHJA presidential election....

    Also -- it clearly tells talented young people thinking about becoming professionals that they ought to look elsewhere for employment unless they are willing to fall in line with all the stuff that goes on that is not right. Not a very positive message -- and not a very good statement for the future of the sport


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Not one person has been brave enough to send me an email, for what its worth.

    I am ready to discuss and troubleshoot all day long, but I can not read pm's on the machine I have, and will have for at least another 3 weeks
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    Not one person has been brave enough to send me an email, for what its worth.

    I am ready to discuss and troubleshoot all day long, but I can not read pm's on the machine I have, and will have for at least another 3 weeks
    Actually sent a PM --- and would be glad to send an email if I had an address --



  8. #68
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    I posted it on its own thread, but here ya go.
    mroades@aol.com
    its also in my profile and on my facebook page I believe. I am not smart enough to have a "hide and seek" kind of email address
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    Not one person has been brave enough to send me an email, for what its worth.

    I am ready to discuss and troubleshoot all day long, but I can not read pm's on the machine I have, and will have for at least another 3 weeks
    That explains why your PM inbox is full and won't accept anything.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    I posted it on its own thread, but here ya go.
    mroades@aol.com
    its also in my profile and on my facebook page I believe. I am not smart enough to have a "hide and seek" kind of email address
    Actually your e mail is not on your profile, that I could find anyway. But that explains why your PM inbox won't accept any new messages. And I sent you something I don't care to post on here.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestLegUp View Post
    I disagree with the call for more rules; that is the ubiquitous refrain of the irresponsible. Consider Mr. Long's explanation, which is perplexing if not untrue. The USEF does have the authority to discipline a member for "unethical," "dishonest," or "unsportsmanlike" acts that are prejudicial to the sport or Federation. See GR 702(1)(d), which reads in part:

    1. A violation is any act prejudicial to the best interests of the Federation, including but not limited to the following:
    d. Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the Federation.

    Killing her pony and fleeing the scene sound unethical and unsportsmanlike to me and have proven to be prejudicial to the sport. The failure of Ms. Mandarino to turn over documents sure sounds "dishonest."

    Her lack of cooperation does not stymie the USEF's ability to prove her guilt. Instead, her suppression of information requested by the governing body points to her guilt. Her failure to appear at her hearing to defend herself also permits an adverse inference to be taken in support of the allegations in the protest. The USEF, not a state criminal court, was perfectly free to conclude the allegations in the protest were correct and to punish Ms. Mandarino. The USEF certainly could have "deemed" her actions "improper" under GR702, given the circumstances and her lack of defense. The USEF was not handcuffed and is capable with current rules to police itself.

    The USEF should have followed their current rules and kicked her out for playing games and embarrassing the sport. Before calling for more rules, the "correct" contours of which no can seem to articulate, the USEF should do a better job of obeying and enforcing the current rules. Otherwise violations of the new Humble Rule will be equally ignored.
    USEF has always been terrified of being sued. Note the delay back in the late '80's & early 90's to set down (either for years or for life) those BNT's who participated in killing horses for the insurance scandal. That took YEAR's and they did not set anyone down until they had been convicted of criminal acts.

    AND, these decisions are still controversial with calls from many members to allow some of these trainers back into USEF. See the threads regarding Paul Valliere and Barney Ward if you don't believe me. (As in "poor Barney, not allowed to see McLain ride... unreal!)

    USEF is here not to serve the needs of the "middle class" but to promote the high performance riders. There have been calls over the years to form a new association more majority-friendly, but when one was, aka USHJA, it was quickly folded into USEF. USEF has a monopoly & we who want to show, or be a professional, or be a judge or official have no choice but to be members.

    I'd love to see change in USEF. But we won't unless there is a large scale uprising in the membership. And, that starts with a change in leadership & more members getting involved.

    Start a petition. USEF has what - 80,000 members? Get the word out to the other disciplines - get 10, 20,000 signatures & then see what happens.

    This is not a new issue. It's been around for 40 years - or more. And, many of those in the association leadership HAVE been set down for drug violations. Is it in THEIR interests to change the current USEF policies? I think not. Perhaps the first rule change is to require that anyone in a leadership position cannot have been found guilty of violating the D&M rules.

    But here's an idea: Have the drug testers pull the sharps containers (required at every show), not the location of each container (what barn they were found) and test the contents of the syringes. If banned substances are found, then test the horses from that barn at the next show they attend. Wouldn't that produce interesting results!
    "Socrates was a very wise man who went around giving good advice. They poisoned him." Anonymous...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jn1193 View Post
    USEF has always been terrified of being sued. Note the delay back in the late '80's & early 90's to set down (either for years or for life) those BNT's who participated in killing horses for the insurance scandal. That took YEAR's and they did not set anyone down until they had been convicted of criminal acts.

    AND, these decisions are still controversial with calls from many members to allow some of these trainers back into USEF. See the threads regarding Paul Valliere and Barney Ward if you don't believe me. (As in "poor Barney, not allowed to see McLain ride... unreal!)

    USEF is here not to serve the needs of the "middle class" but to promote the high performance riders. There have been calls over the years to form a new association more majority-friendly, but when one was, aka USHJA, it was quickly folded into USEF. USEF has a monopoly & we who want to show, or be a professional, or be a judge or official have no choice but to be members.

    I'd love to see change in USEF. But we won't unless there is a large scale uprising in the membership. And, that starts with a change in leadership & more members getting involved.

    Start a petition. USEF has what - 80,000 members? Get the word out to the other disciplines - get 10, 20,000 signatures & then see what happens.

    This is not a new issue. It's been around for 40 years - or more. And, many of those in the association leadership HAVE been set down for drug violations. Is it in THEIR interests to change the current USEF policies? I think not. Perhaps the first rule change is to require that anyone in a leadership position cannot have been found guilty of violating the D&M rules.

    But here's an idea: Have the drug testers pull the sharps containers (required at every show), not the location of each container (what barn they were found) and test the contents of the syringes. If banned substances are found, then test the horses from that barn at the next show they attend. Wouldn't that produce interesting results!


    Bolding mine, I have actually been suggesting this ever since they started requiring sharps containers. Of course it wouldnt take long for nothing to end up in them once that became practice.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    I can answer that one, somebody with 40+ horses on a circuit that did not do well under a particular lesser known judge drops a hint to management that they have been thinking about another circuit 3 states over on conflicting dates where they might do better with all 40+ horses. Or, all of theirs schedualed in a particular judges ring develop temoporary tummy aches and sore feet and scratch.

    Thing about whistle blowing here is it's fine to stand up alone and take the slings and arrows...but others around you are going to catch those arrows too. Like your trainer, your clients, barn employees etc. Not going to be too many ribbons coming the way of anybody in a whistle blowers barn, not going to find it easy to sell top dollar horses, get good prices to buy them or for the help to get another position....
    Thanks for the explanation. I just wanted to know how direct or blunt influential trainers were with show managers about the choice of judges.

    The next paragraph applies to me as an ammy and an owner. I keep thinking "With friends like that, who needs enemies?" I guess I'm old enough, horsewoman enough and busy enough that I don't care if the drugging trainer or my barn buddies there cared that I blew a whistle.

    That's because the HOs end up with the fried or crippled horses. Too many times, I have seen a trainer simply hand back a horse that he/she can't sell for the client (and perhaps had a part in wrecking) and telling the client to dispose of it. I can't afford that, so I need to be on top of my animal's care and training. And the WP-like hunter isn't something I can afford to endorse, either. That's because so few horses offer the complete package of athleticism and tranquility that the WP-hunter boasts. If I say "Yes, let's give mine Just A Tad of Pharma to get there," then I'm part of an arms race that I'll lose when the next guy with the slightly nicer horse does the same thing. I'd screw myself to even start.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  14. #74
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    Thank you Findeight, you always seem to be able to bring to light what I was trying to say. And I did think my email was in my profile, but I wont be able to fix that even with this hateful netbook.
    I have to go teach a clinic tomorrow, so I will have to bow out of this discussion until tomorrow night. But I think it is good and maybe, just maybe, something useful will come of all of this banter!
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Unfortunately this is all there is, discussion. USEF does not do anything nor wants to. Whistle blowers get punished so we are back to square one. All i try to do is discourage horseshowing.



  16. #76
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    Would a petition really make any difference? I love the idea of amateurs being a more integral part of running operations, but how could that even work...if amateurs have to work to support their horses?

    Would it make a difference if the 'whistleblower' wasn't a member... But a former member?



  17. #77
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    It has been a long, long, LONG time coming (since the 80s at LEAST) but the USEF FINALLY needs to step up and be willing to police its members properly. Long overdue.
    Last edited by vxf111; Jan. 2, 2013 at 08:56 AM.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    It has been a long, long, LONG time coming (since the 80s at LEAST) but the USEF FINALLY needs to step up and be willing to police it's members properly. Long overdue.
    yes....



  19. #79
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    The USEF has a rule they could have used in this instance. They chose not to. All the rule re-writing in the world won't matter if the organization doesn't want to police members. Or is afraid of litigious members.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  20. #80
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    The Facts About USEF Protests & What USEF Members Should Know about the Ted Stevens Act and the USOC Rules and Regs for NGB's and the USOC's Due Process Checklist.

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...ould_Know.html

    The USOC is already involved in mediating a resolution between the USEF and AHF. The USOC was responsible for the USEF releases the transcripts that were fully paid for and being held against USEF Rules and Regs and responsible for the release of the rulings.
    Elizabeth Mandarino
    www.amberhillponies.com
    cell 908.397.0977



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