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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    They have every right to it since it was private property that was passed down to them. You do understand the concept of private property, do you?


    Every right to them, so long as they exist.



    Karl called, he wanted to know what you did with his copy of Das Kapital.


    I can't wait for all this to unravel. What fun to be had.
    My.head.exploded.. OH THE FUNNY.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    I find it very sad that posters who participate in one of the most expensive sports, love to walk all over those who have next to nothing. Your horses eat better than alot of humans. Then again, maybe we should feel sorry for your horses.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Every right to them, so long as they exist.
    Then equally, people have every right to the various help programs for the poor that exist, as long as they exist. No different than "well, the tax loophole exists and even though it might be "unfair" somehow, people have every right to exploit it within the bounds of law and regulation".


    18 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pezk View Post
    I find it very sad that posters who participate in one of the most expensive sports, love to walk all over those who have next to nothing. Your horses eat better than alot of humans. Then again, maybe we should feel sorry for your horses.
    So true. The outright nastiness and callousness of some people is appalling. You have to wonder if they ever actually talk to people in real life like this.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bauhaus View Post
    Exactly - so many Christians don't read their own text and believe they have no responsibility to help the poor. It is immoral to assume the poor are lazy and therefore they don't deserve any help at all. The wealthy in America (the ones who finance the GOP anyway) do not want to leave ANYTHING in their fields. They want it all for themselves, and think it makes them better people and the poor deserve to starve because they were too lazy to pick the crops that don't even exist for them to pick - to extend that metaphor.
    You are misinformed.

    You really should read the demographics of the different parties. The "wealthy" in a American now support the Democratic party. Nine of the ten riches counties in America voted for Obama. Democrats have more financial support from the "rich" while Republicans pull more financial support from the middle classes...Not that actual fact will change your thinking.

    I don't know a single Christian who believes they don't have a responsibility to the poor. The difference is YOU think it is moral to force a group of people under threat of imprisonment to give the fruits of their labor to the government so that the government can help people. *I* think the burden of helping the poor is mine and my tax contribution does not relieve that obligation. The federal government is fraught with waste, corruption and incompetence and I can't think of a more inefficient (not to mention long term ineffective) way to help the needy.

    Nor do I know any conservatives who "do not want to leave ANYTHING in their fields." There are no Republicans advocating any ideas of reducing the individual tax burden to zero. Not one. Wanting to pay less taxes is not the same as wanting to pay no taxes. How incredibly disingenuous and/or once again misinformed you are to state such an obvious falsehood.


    20 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FitToBeTied View Post
    I think one thing the article does point out is how ineeficient the poverty programs have become. Metropolitan Memphis has a population of 1,316,100 according to the 2011 census. Also, according to the census that the poverty rate in Memphis Metro is a little under 20%.

    So that means that each person is getting $19,000. You would think that would be enough.

    My best guess is of that $5B not much is actually making it to the people that need it and a lot is being lost in the bureaucracy.

    I think that like spending in education it is not that we do not spend enough helping people in poverty but rather that it is badly spent.
    Without running the numbers what's missing here isn't $19k per person but what that means per HOUSEHOLD. That would be $60k in assistence a year for a household of 3 when the average household income in the US is about $45. So yes, I think it is safe to say the funding for people in poverty is being badly spent by the government before it ever makes it to the poor.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    Without running the numbers what's missing here isn't $19k per person but what that means per HOUSEHOLD. That would be $60k in assistence a year for a household of 3 when the average household income in the US is about $45. So yes, I think it is safe to say the funding for people in poverty is being badly spent by the government before it ever makes it to the poor.

    I definitely agree with this.

    You all should read the whole article in Sunday's paper.

    Remember Richard Nixon? The wild eyed liberal president? He floated the idea of a negative income tax/guaranteed income.

    Thoughts? It would certainly be simpler and get rid of all the overlapping bureaucracies.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    It would certainly be simpler and get rid of all the overlapping bureaucracies.
    The federal government has 126 agencies dedicated to fighting poverty. Overlaping bureacracies is a serious problem. Especially when you consider that the number doesn't include state and local government programs.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    DH and I have mentored and assisted kids at the local military school for the past 10 years. The one constant in assisting these kids and their families. . . yes their families is money.

    BUT and this a bit BUT - each has needed different assistance, some a shove, some encouragement others hand.holding.every.step.of.the.way. Including the last kid who was supposed to be off the dole 2 years ago - yeah 2 years ago. So far all but 2 earned their HS diplomas, of those 2, 1 got his GED later and the other still has a few years. About half graduated from college, many with honors. Of the remaining half - most are in or working their way through college. DH tells them we will provide some $$ as long as they are in college and keep us advised of their grades.

    The not so funny part? Two of the kids we have and are assisting kept telling us their Moms were about to the lose the family home. Welllllll Both Moms are thinking of retiring in 2013. DH and I? Even though he is SS age and I am close we can not really retire now, if we want to maintain our farm and animals.

    This is a long way to tell you one size does not fit all, which is the government process. The government has had close to 50 years to end proverty. Based on what I see and hear around me, the government's war on proverty (LBJ) has been a bust. So why should you or I continue to fund a failing program?
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetjocky View Post
    It's called "the public good." Personally I'd much rather have help available to folks who are working hard to better themselves than not. I finished my bachelor's thanks to help from the taxpayers of New York State (of which I was one) and would gladly extend that help to others similarly situated. We all may find ourselves in need of a helping hand from time to time. That doesn't mean that you live off the government, but I do think it benefits society at large to invest in the education of its citizens.
    I too had some government assistance. I got some Pell grants, I got some state assitance, I got student loans (all of which I paid back). This assistance enabled me to get a job where I was able to work my way into the top 2%. I now pay taxes on that money so there is a return on the investment and I am happy to provide others with the means to do what I did.

    And I never could have done it without assistance (go ahead, try to pay for professional school these days on a minimum wage job...I worked up to 3 jobs at a time while I was doing my undergrad, and I still needed assistance for some of my schooling)


    10 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Just how many have ever lifted themselves out of poverty based on .gov assistance?

    I sure as hell would like to know.
    They sure have! GI bill anyone? That made a college education accessible to huge swaths of po folks that otherwise could not have afforded it.

    And in the meantime, more basic stuff like WIC and welfare prevents children malnourished to the point that they can't benefit from the free (read: tax-payer funded) education we provide, and crime that comes from the necessity of being hungry.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    9 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    A) The evidence is right before everyone's eyes that the majority are lazy and love to live in a culture of dependency. Only idiots fail to see this. Or those filled with white guilt.

    B) Even more immoral than not helping the poor is stealing from others to do so.
    Now is the time I wish the thumbs down existed...... I'm sure this post would have many. And I give it a hearty public thumbs down!

    I'm not full of white guilt, but I am also happy to say I am not filled with whatever it is that makes you post such things......


    8 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Apr. 25, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    You are misinformed.

    You really should read the demographics of the different parties. The "wealthy" in a American now support the Democratic party. Nine of the ten riches counties in America voted for Obama. Democrats have more financial support from the "rich" while Republicans pull more financial support from the middle classes...Not that actual fact will change your thinking.

    I don't know a single Christian who believes they don't have a responsibility to the poor. The difference is YOU think it is moral to force a group of people under threat of imprisonment to give the fruits of their labor to the government so that the government can help people. *I* think the burden of helping the poor is mine and my tax contribution does not relieve that obligation. The federal government is fraught with waste, corruption and incompetence and I can't think of a more inefficient (not to mention long term ineffective) way to help the needy.

    Nor do I know any conservatives who "do not want to leave ANYTHING in their fields." There are no Republicans advocating any ideas of reducing the individual tax burden to zero. Not one. Wanting to pay less taxes is not the same as wanting to pay no taxes. How incredibly disingenuous and/or once again misinformed you are to state such an obvious falsehood.
    So more of these people donated to Obama than Romney? Do you have a citation to back up what you just said or are you just hoping no one questions it?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...s-are-missing/


    As for the rest of that indignant screed, it can be summed up as "Christians only help if they want to, and you're not allowed to make them pay their fair share if they don't want to."

    There are plenty who don't want to, and plenty more who think that paying a tithe to their social club disguised as a church (sitting on a multimillion dollar property, erecting outsized building after outsized building rather than spending the majority of their operating budget on helping others) is enough.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    They sure have! GI bill anyone? That made a college education accessible to huge swaths of po folks that otherwise could not have afforded it.

    And in the meantime, more basic stuff like WIC and welfare prevents children malnourished to the point that they can't benefit from the free (read: tax-payer funded) education we provide, and crime that comes from the necessity of being hungry.
    It is always interesting how differently we (collective) see things. The GI bill is a perk for active duty and retired military. For starters, you have to pass boot camp in your branch of the military and serve "X" number of active duty months, not including training time, to be eligible. The GI bill is probably an example of a halfway decent military run program that isn't just for "po folks".

    It's interesting to reflect back that a large number of our WW1 and WW2 service men and women had only an 8th grade education and yet they produced a productive generation of citizens.

    It's also so confusing, you say we have malnourished children but for 4 years we've had a national war on obesity. Which one is right?? It is so confusing....


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    So true. The outright nastiness and callousness of some people is appalling. You have to wonder if they ever actually talk to people in real life like this.
    Yes, they do. I ran a gymnastics center in a well to do area. You just couldn't believe what some of the parents are capable of.

    They were entitled to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, wherever they wanted no matter how it impacted anyone else with a "screw you" attitude.

    Not ALL parents, mind you, but plenty. I also found a huge difference between old money and new money. I wonder if that's still true or if everyone now has the gimmees.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    7 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    All I know is President Obama's own aunt and uncle are on the system here in Mass. His aunt even told reporters that we OWED her everything BECAUSE this was America. This being said while she sported a fur coat, very nice designer sunglasses and shops at nicer stores than I ever will.

    I will say my mother got left with six little kids and $10/ week to feed all of us. She managed to keep us all clothed and fed by working day and night. She had to much pride to take government assistance. She certainly could have sat back and taken everything.
    There in lies the problem in today's society. Everyone WANTS to be on the government dole instead of helping themselves, if they can. Of course I think we should have programs to help with people who are down and out. That's called being humane. I don't think people who come to this country illegally or people who already have 5 kids, then have another, just to get more money from all of us, should be able to sit back and soak up money for the rest of their lives. That is not how the system is suppose to work! It's there as a safety net not as a way of life.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Yes, back in WW1 and 2 many people had limited educations. Newsflash, the world has changed since then.

    One can be fat and malnourished. Simple carbs are the least expensive items in the grocery (many of them due to price supports).

    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...g-in-baltimore
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Caballero, you turn my stomach. Do you even post on HR topics or do you just spew your bile on OT day? Take your hate elsewhere.
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian


    10 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
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    No one making $21,000 for a family of 4 is living high on a hog. There are simply minimum costs to feed, house and provide medical care in this country. We choose to fill in that gap.

    For example, public housing is becoming pretty nice. Because it needs to be so as not to screw the poor homeowners that live near where it is built. Public housing in my area is as nice as Class A and B rentals. Having it that nice protects the nearby middle class person hoping to see a home appreciate.

    Honestly..... we need to really educate and make it not worthwhile for people to have so many children. We don't have as many jobs, thus don't need as many workers. We can educate people all day long and we still don't actually *need* them. A lot of people even have college degrees and there are not enough jobs for them.

    However, if we do not provide for the poor, what happens is chaos as they find ways to support themselves that include crime. I'd rather pay taxes that go to housing and food stamps than get robbed or live next to a slum. I'd rather pay for some level of healthcare than have outbreaks of disease.

    Is it fair? Not really, but what makes me angrier are the employers that don't pay living wages and receive subsidy from taxpayers. So yeah, I don't love supporting welfare mama with 6 kids, but 1. don't blame her for not working for subsistence wage and 2. am happy she is contained by a system.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by axl View Post
    Caballero, you turn my stomach. Do you even post on HR topics or do you just spew your bile on OT day? Take your hate elsewhere.
    She is such a cartoon I expect her next post to say "You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it."

    I don't think there's anything there to take seriously


    5 members found this post helpful.

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