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  1. #1
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    Default Mare Approval with American Holsteiner Association?

    I have an 8 yr old mare with a Holsteiner COP. I adore this mare and would like to breed her in the next few years. I was thinking that I should look into getting her into the AHHA mare book. This morning I read through the rule book on their website, but could not find a section that said what the mares have to do at the approvals. I know my mare's breeder and will contact him for some guidance, but I was wondering in general what the mares have to be prepared to do. Thanks in advance!



  2. #2
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    The first question I have is why does she only have a CP? You should verify with the office first that she is eligible for inspection. If she is eligible, she will go into the ring and stand so the judges can assess her conformation. Then she will be walked on a triangle so the judges can see her walk from three different angles. Then she will trot the triangle. The judges will then tell you to turn the mare loose and will watch and score her canter. She will get seven scores: type, topline, front legs, hind legs, walk, trot, canter. Depending on what category she is in (she will probably be considered a foundation mare), she may have to get a score of 46 or higher to be "approved". You also have the option of free-jumping through a chute. It is not required, but many mare owners are doing it. The scores for jumping will be recorded on the back of her papers. The scores are for willingness, scope, and technique.
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY


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  3. #3
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    One thing to keep in mind is inspection location(s). AHHA doesn't offer many inspection locations. And, not quite as many approved stallions in the US. Great breed, the US registry is just a bit limited, and some of the AHHA people are not friendly to a thoroughbred stamm, which, why bother w/that attitude?

    Can't wait to hear the blasting I might get for that. Will hide behind my flame-retardent igloo



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmorning View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is inspection location(s). AHHA doesn't offer many inspection locations. And, not quite as many approved stallions in the US. Great breed, the US registry is just a bit limited, and some of the AHHA people are not friendly to a thoroughbred stamm, which, why bother w/that attitude?

    Can't wait to hear the blasting I might get for that. Will hide behind my flame-retardent igloo
    You should be blasted with that remark. No one is unfriendly to a mare from a TB stamm. We just created rules to eliminate the piss poor ones. Every Tom , Dick and Harrie were bringing anything and everything and wanting to breed with them. The AHHA stiffened the rules , thus making TB mares to be of higher quality before admitting them into our book.

    Educate yourself on the rules before you make false comments such as these. Surely you are not arguing against higher quality standards ?



  5. #5
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    The person I bought my girl from got the mare at 6 mos old and she told me that she never pursued more than the COP because she knew she was not going to keep the horse (older lady who sort of bought her on a whim- had a "partner" that was going to handle the training and they were going to make a killing on resale. "Partner" didn't follow through, horse sat for years and so on and so on). I'll research the background and find out if the horse is even eligible for more.

    Thanks for the info about the testing, I was wondering about the free jumping. My horse's strengths IMO are her canter and jump, so if that is an option I'd send her through the chute. I'll have to do some youtube searches to see how horses are set up and see how the triangle is done. I'll also have to draft someone to help me with the free jumping- that will be fun . How high is the free jump? The mare has jumped up to 4' through gymnastics with a rider and can do more- the rider (me) is most definitely the limiting factor .

    WRT location, I didn't see anything posted yet on the AHHA calendar for 2013, figured I can check back in later. I may research some other registries also since I believe her sire was approved both Holsteiner and KWPN.



  6. #6
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    The AHHA - as well as all other major regstries - require that a mare have registration papers before she can be entered into the mare book and have foals that recieve registration papers. A COP is not a registration paper - and your mare is effectively not a registered animal.

    Normally a COP is issued because one parent is not approved for breeding. If the sire of your mare was approved and licensed AHHA - then the problem is with the mother of your mare. To get your mare approved you would first have to have her get full registration papers. Difficult, but not impossible, unless of course the mother of your mare is deceased.

    All registries have rules, and all have the ability to ignore them in extraordinary circumstances - but generally speaking if you want to breed a mare - the first thing you should do, before buying her is make SURE that she has full registration papers - and that you have opportunities to register the resulting foals.

    Sometimes you find a horse that for some reason is a super horse - and you breed her without the paperwork - your choice - but you have to do so knowing that obtaining registration papers for the resulting foal will be difficult, if not impossible and that if you do get papers, they will be second tier papers.



  7. #7
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    Jan. 20, 2006
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    Goodmorning, I am sorry you have the opinion that the AHHA is not friendly to TB stamms. There are many successful TB mares in the studbook and we absolutely welcome high quality TB mares. If there are some individual members who do not like TBs, well the association cannot prevent them from stating their opinions. If you, or anyone, has specific comments or complaints , please let me know. I am the ombudsman and would truly appreciate hearing what you have to say. My contact info is on the AHHA website or you can PM me here.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goodmorning View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is inspection location(s). AHHA doesn't offer many inspection locations. And, not quite as many approved stallions in the US. Great breed, the US registry is just a bit limited, and some of the AHHA people are not friendly to a thoroughbred stamm, which, why bother w/that attitude?

    Can't wait to hear the blasting I might get for that. Will hide behind my flame-retardent igloo
    It's not about being unfriendly to TBs. Any non-Holsteiner mare must score into the Premium book, whether it is a TB, Hanoverian, Belgian Warmblood, KWPN.... you name it. It is not an anti-TB bias. The AHHA does not accept ANY outside mares of "average" quality.

    Regarding the OP's question:
    Here is a link to the rulebook, which I am unable to copy and paste tonight - having PDF issues.
    American Holsteiner Horse Association Breeding Regulations & Rules
    Read up on section 3.3.1 c - A mare with an AHHA COP may be inspected if both parents hold full registration with the AHHA, Jockey Club, or other approved Warmblood Registry. If both parents were eligible, this may be an option, assuming your mare is nice enough to make it into the premium book. She would have to score the 46 bonits (Main Mare Premium)

    What I would NOT do is breed, expecting her to be able to make it in no matter what and then potentially end up with an unregisterable foal. Either have a back up registry in place (preferably something that would not require you to alter your stallion choice) so that if your mare misses at the AHHA approval (and it does happen) your foal can still be registered somewhere else.

    I have an AHHA foal coming next year, so I'm going to an inspection regardles. I also have what I think is a VERY nice TB mare that I want to present but she'll also be going to the local RPSI inspection before that so I can get an honest outside opinion before I potentially waste my $ taking her to AHHA. I know she'll score very well with RPSI and I'm fairly certain she'll make the MMP book with AHHA but I always like to have a contingency plan.
    Last edited by JWB; Dec. 31, 2012 at 07:20 PM.
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  9. #9
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    If you are not in a hurry to breed in 2013 maybe you can go to an inspection in the fall offering the mare test and watch and have a chance to talk to people?



  10. #10
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    You can go to my website and look at my mares. Most have videos of their inspections. I'm providing a link to one that did the jump chute. There is no required height for the jump chute. It is determined at the time of the test based on the mare's experience, age, and ability. This video is a mare who was inspected as a three year old.

    http://www.minglewoodsporthorses.net...ahForSale.aspx
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY


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  11. #11
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    I think the point is not that the AHHA is not friendly to TB mares. As bayhawk pointed out, the AHHA has higher standards for the TB and outside WB mares. However, there is a recent slight policy change, not only premium-scoring TB mares can get into the MAIN MARE BOOK, but 1) TB mares with proven record in sport that reache a certain standard and 2) TB mares that score 45 points AND free-jump really well.
    On the other hand, there are some AHHA members who are very vocal about their opinion, that offspring of AHHA approved Holsteiner stallions, out of approved TB mares NOT being true Holsteiners. This fact is very unfortunate. These horses are, in fact, are American Holsteiners and without them the Association would not be viable. Not mentioning the fact that trainers/competitors, including me, would rather ride a highly talented horse out of a premium scoring TB mare, than a dud out of a 39-point German stamm or German import clunker.


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  12. #12
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    Thank you for the information! Breeding is probably 3 years down the line, i am still actively showing my horse. I didn't buy her with the intent to breed, she is just turning out better than I expected and I would love to have another like her. I am really new to understanding wb registries and breeding (as if that weren't coming through loud and clear) and want to start learning now to be ready in a few years. It must be my mare's dam who was the limiting factor getting the cp, she is a jockey club registered tb, but I dont know if she was approved.



  13. #13
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    Default

    I was considering taking my TB mare to an AHHA approval in order to register her 2013 foal AHHA, but was advised that if the mare does not meet the score requirements to be in the mare books, the foal is not eligible for registration and ONLY eligible for COP... so if I had to guess, this would be the situation, or as mentioned above that normally COP are given when the parents are not eligible for breeding privileges. I would consider having her inspected by another registry. Because of the COP you at least have proof of pedigree, but no true registration anywhere.
    First and foremost about the horse.
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  14. #14
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    Well, there are some things to consider here:
    1) If your mare is a good quality TB mare, there's no reason to worry too much about the score. Especially if she free-jumps well.
    2) Even if your mare doesn't score premium (46 points) or doesn't score 45 points and free-jumps relatively well, if you mare scores Main Mare Book score (43-45), she will get into the Mare Book and the foal is REGISTERED, although with "silver" papers. this distinction was made to differentiate between truly exceptional, truly desirable TB or outside mares and the ones that are so-so.
    3) Your mare would truly have to be a lesser quality mare not to score at the required level. I am sure you could ask an experienced Holsteiner breeder whether your mare would be worth to present - and with that information you could be almost 100%. Especially if you make sure your mare is in top shape (meaning shiny and fat! - which can be a challenge when there's a foal on the mare's side. However, a very nice foal can also make the mare's case.)
    4) What would be the purpose of the inspections, if you do not want to hear an honest evaluation of the horse?


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  15. #15
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    I would also caution those considering using RPSI or other registries to get an "idea" about your mares quality before presenting to the AHHA. I can promise you that RPSI is WAAAY more liberal in their scoring than the judges of the AHHA.

    try and judge the mare yourself or get someone who knows what they are talking about to give you an honest opinion of how the mare may score in type , topline , fl , hl , walk ,trot and canter. She has to score 46 points. 6 is average and breed standard. If she scores for example 7, 6 , 6, 6 , 6 ,7 , 8 = 46 (or any combination that adds up to 46 ) then she would enter the main mare book and be able to produce fully registerable babies.

    46 points are not easy to achieve for a TB mare. She is not usually built like an uphill sporthorse with a different topline , leg construction and movement. Good luck !



  16. #16
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    This is exactly what happened with me, my mare is in the RPSI premium mare book, but is also older, not in shape, hasn't been ridden in years, and as mentioned above what I was told is it is difficult for a TB mare to score that well because of how they are built
    First and foremost about the horse.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    I would also caution those considering using RPSI or other registries to get an "idea" about your mares quality before presenting to the AHHA. I can promise you that RPSI is WAAAY more liberal in their scoring than the judges of the AHHA.
    I am not so sure I agree with this. I saw some pretty generous judging at the AHHA inspection I attended this summer. The "quality" (If you can call it that) was quite disappointing.

    And, ironic that you had no problem crowing how awesome the RPSI is when the filly from your happy accident breeding did well with them.



  18. #18
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    I think Otto has a very good eye for a TB mare and actually likes them. He tends to appreciate the things they bring to warmblood breeding. I am not so sure that other breed organizations seem them that way - they are seen as a necessary evil to get to the F2 generation.
    As an aside , I had a TB mare who just made premium with RPSI, was not premium with ISR but was in the top 20 mares nationwide for AHS ( including all Han mares). Just goes to show you they are all looking for something a little different



  19. #19
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    AHHA judges horses based on how they fit the Holsteiner type and movement for breeding stock. There is no question that RPSI is more liberal in their judging as they have allowed sway back stallions, crooked leg stallions, and so forth to be approved for their book. I have been to a RPSI inspection, and I can assure you that their standards are lower then AHHA's. There is a reason for this, they do not represent a breed. There isn't a particular type that needs to be preserved or protected.

    Zlotych, I would be curious as to what inspection site you visited that you feel is so was so liberal. The site I attended had very high quality, and it was judge appropriately.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zlotych View Post
    I am not so sure I agree with this. I saw some pretty generous judging at the AHHA inspection I attended this summer. The "quality" (If you can call it that) was quite disappointing.

    And, ironic that you had no problem crowing how awesome the RPSI is when the filly from your happy accident breeding did well with them.
    Again......another poster spouting off about something they know nothing about. You must be referring to someone else.

    I have never had a "happy accident" breeding. I have ever only presented 1 HOLSTEINER foal to RPSI (due to the fact she was in Oklahoma) and she just happen to outscore every foal in the nation for RPSI that year. 8.6 type and 8.6 movement ,8.6 overall. She then went on to score premium mare points for the AHHA.

    Point remains........RPSI is liberal in their scoring when entering mares and stallions into their books. This is not new information.



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