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  1. #581
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    Jan. 26, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    How is that even legal???
    I assume you have never negotiated a commercial lease... nearly everything is up for grabs


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnie View Post
    Respect is just that. Say you don't believe and let it go at that. There's really no need to refer to an imaginary being or a myth or whatever. For those who believe it's definitely not an imaginary being. Whether it's God or Jesus or Buddha or Allah.

    could and maybe should add Congress to your little list of imaginary beings


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #583
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    Aug. 12, 2002
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    Are you people still going on about this?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #584
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    Jan. 26, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Minnie, this is the definition of a myth:

    1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
    .
    yes, pretty much describes "Congress"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #585
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    Feb. 22, 2009
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    Wisconsin
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    This has probably been covered, and I am still reading through the pages, but if HL has an issue with Obamacare providing the morning after pill, then well lets see, why don't they just provide NORMAL insurance ie non Obamacare to their employees and only offer packages that pay for certain things ? And they can obviously afford to provide insurance and not the cheaper Obamacare since they are taking such a large hit on the fine.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #586
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    Aug. 21, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    No one is disrespectfull, you and others think everyone needs to walk on eggshells around your personal beliefs. If your beliefs were so strong you would not be expecting others to support you. You are attempting to make factual statements on something that cannot be proven and you consider anyone questioning your beliefs as disrespectfull. You want respect and reverance for your belief, join a christian BB.
    I do not expect anyone to treat my beliefs with reverence, I do, however, expect them to be treated with respect. Respect of others' beliefs is necessary for civil discourse.
    I do not believe that I have been disrespectful nor insulting of anyone on this thread, and if I have, I apologize. However, I have been accused of being narcistic, without logic, incabable of reason and have had my relationship with my husband called into question. And all of this after someone claimed that conservatives go to insults when they have nothing left to say.
    I always have the hope that reasonable people can disagree reasonably and that people can agree to disagree but when the conversation devolves to insults and disrespect that hope is dashed.
    I will say that this thread has made me examine my faith formation and realize how blest I have been to have had the training that I have had. If you are interested, faith formation is not blind following because someone says so. It is based on (at least my faith formation is) prayerful thought, study of the Bible and finally, having a religious mentor who was highly regarded within his church, the greater Christian community withing his town and the great religous community within his area, including the Jewish and Muslim Community. That particular mentor taught me the difference between self-righteous and God -righteous and humility. The current priest at my parish has taught me much about forgiveness. This priest is from Rwanda and lost his whole family in the massacre there - when he speaks of forgiveness, his words carry weight. Faith formation is a lifelong process that I have barely scratched the surface of.
    For those who think I would impose my belief system on someone else, that would not happen because I learned long ago that hitting someone on the head with a Bible doesn't work I try to be respectul of those who disagree with me and I do ask that your lack of belief not be imposed on me.
    For those who worry that a belief in an authority higher than the government translates into mass murders, that is certainly not always the case. Sometimes it informs a person of faith that slavery is wrong and so that person helps to shuttle escaped slaves to safety, in defiance of the government. (There is a synagoge in Newport that was active in the underground railroad, and I believe, but have not verified, that the Quakers were also involved in the underground railroad.) Sometimes that faith formation led people to see that segregation is wrong and so they protested against it. (I beleive the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. had something to do with non-violent protest.)
    As far as governments being the final and ultimate arbiter of authority. The names Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao (I don't know how to spell his last name and am too lazy to look it up.) and Pol Pot come to mind. Extremism in any form, religious or otherwise, is dangerous and to be guarded against.

    And so I pray for a government of wise men and a country at peace. And I wish all of you, conservatives, liberals, believers and non-believers a joyfilled New Year.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  7. #587
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Cheval Convert, thanks for a lovely post and sentiment. The line is thin and tricky and we all do well to remember that.

    My new years resolution is to become uninvolved in any discussions regarding god or religion on COTH. The context is lost, peoples feeling are hurt and in the end, nothing positive is gained for anyone. No doubt, as outspoken as *I* am, everyone knows how I feel and there is no reason to elaborate, and if someone is determined that my intentions are nefarious, I can type until my fingers fall off, explaining over and over, and their opinion will not change.

    I do sincerely hope everyone has a blessed new year. In spite of our differences, I wouldnt wish a bad moment on anyone, only fine and wonderful things.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #588
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    Apr. 28, 2010
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    Atlanta, GA and New Orleans, LA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couture TB View Post
    This has probably been covered, and I am still reading through the pages, but if HL has an issue with Obamacare providing the morning after pill, then well lets see, why don't they just provide NORMAL insurance ie non Obamacare to their employees and only offer packages that pay for certain things ? And they can obviously afford to provide insurance and not the cheaper Obamacare since they are taking such a large hit on the fine.
    This is not quite how the law works. The Act sets forth certain minimum health insurance coverage reqirements that all employers with over a certain number of employees have to provide. If they fail to do so, they face large fines.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #589
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    Apr. 28, 2010
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    Lovely posts cheval convert and EqTrainer. Happy New Year everyone! May it be filled with fabulous rides and other great things for all of us.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #590
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    Oct. 12, 2005
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    Va
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarheelJD View Post
    Lovely posts cheval convert and EqTrainer. Happy New Year everyone! May it be filled with fabulous rides and other great things for all of us.


    DITTO!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #591
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    Jun. 20, 2009
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    Hunterdon County NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    No, calling HL "whackadoodles" or "stupid" sounds pretty disrespectful to me. If that's the best you can do, your arguement is pretty weak.
    I'll own that. I admit I don't respect people who try to use "Their God" as an excuse to do the smart thing, the right thing, and the honorable thing.

    I'm sure I can go through the medical plan that the company provides and find all sorts of things (like $ for Viagra) that are 'against religious principles.' But the ONE, the ONLY, the PERPETUAL target of these geniuses is what a woman does with her uterus. That's the ONLY think you'll find them going after.

    And as far as 'whackadoodles' is concerned, these folks suffer from the company they keep. They get grouped together with the 'legitimate rape' geniuses and other conservative scientific prodigies who continue to horrify the public at large with their ignorance based belief systems.

    It's more than just 'lack of respect.' It's shock and disbelief at the stupidity and lack of education of people in power positions in our society.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  12. #592
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    May. 2, 2011
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    Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    It's shock and disbelief at the stupidity and lack of education of people in power positions in our society.
    I agree with you 100% on this- just look at our government!
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #593
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    california
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    Cheval Convert:

    What you do not understand is people speaking of your posts and ideas, which is what posters are speaking to since it is a BB and I don't "know" anyone on the BB, are referring to those posts and ideas and not YOU. I cannot understand how people can not understand that concept on here.

    You made a list of personal greivances in your post, non of it was personal, you just chose to read it that way. That was your choice for reasons I cannot understand.

    Hope you can better understand what debate is, if you identify all of your opinions and ideas as you personally then you should not be debating. I certainly won't respond to any of your posts.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #594
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    Apr. 1, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarheelJD View Post
    This is not quite how the law works. The Act sets forth certain minimum health insurance coverage reqirements that all employers with over a certain number of employees have to provide. If they fail to do so, they face large fines.
    and the two drugs, Levonelle and Plan B fall within that minimum coverage, correct? These 2 drugs are the only part they are protesting, right?

    a slight spin off .....from Snopes. Apparently there is division among the Christians as well. Rev Lance Schmitz feels the drugs are (correctly) contraception, not abortifacients and wanted to deliver a petition to the Greens but was turned back by guards. I find the discconnect there interesting.

    Tarheel: can you explain the Commerce Act/individual mandate and how they apply (or does not) to the ACA? I tried reading that but got confused a bit by the legalese.



  15. #595
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    May. 5, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post

    a slight spin off .....from Snopes. Apparently there is division among the Christians as well. Rev Lance Schmitz feels the drugs are (correctly) contraception, not abortifacients and wanted to deliver a petition to the Greens but was turned back by guards. I find the discconnect there interesting.
    That petition had 80,000 signatures on it, too. Not a small number by any standard.

    I believe that the point Rev. Schmitz and his group try to make regarding contraception is that consistent access to and education regarding contraception will help decrease the number of abortions in this country.

    Here is a link to an article that points out there may have been an initial misunderstanding about what the morning after pill does, with some lay people assuming that it was the same as RU-486. It also touches on how wording on labels during early drug trials may have helped fuel the misunderstanding:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/he....html?_r=2&hp&

    It begs the question of what, exactly, the family hopes to gain from a legal challenge. The science doesn't back up their claim, or at the very least leaves enough ambiguity to call into question that claim. Is it a test case to set benchmarks? So they know what they need to get before the Supreme Court? The idea that Hobby Lobby has been able to grow as far as it has as a business leads me to believe that they are able to put pure business before their religion (being closed on Sunday is not that uncommon, and a small enough step to take). So would they be willing to take this issue down to the bitter end and close Hobby Lobby entirely if/when the Supreme Court shuts the door on their legal challenge?

    They have never claimed to be anything but a secular company owned by a family who is devoutly Christian. And they have used every legal avenue to divorce their personal liability from their professional liability. That will always come back and bite them in the bum as they continue to tilt at this wind mill.
    Sheilah


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #596
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    Apr. 1, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    That petition had 80,000 signatures on it, too. Not a small number by any standard.

    I believe that the point Rev. Schmitz and his group try to make regarding contraception is that consistent access to and education regarding contraception will help decrease the number of abortions in this country.
    and the Rev. is correct. Abortions can only occur if there is an embryo. If you prevent the group of cells from implanting, there will be no abortion.

    Here is a link to an article that points out there may have been an initial misunderstanding about what the morning after pill does, with some lay people assuming that it was the same as RU-486. It also touches on how wording on labels during early drug trials may have helped fuel the misunderstanding:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/he....html?_r=2&hp&
    I will go read that, thanks for the link.

    It begs the question of what, exactly, the family hopes to gain from a legal challenge. The science doesn't back up their claim, or at the very least leaves enough ambiguity to call into question that claim. Is it a test case to set benchmarks? So they know what they need to get before the Supreme Court? The idea that Hobby Lobby has been able to grow as far as it has as a business leads me to believe that they are able to put pure business before their religion (being closed on Sunday is not that uncommon, and a small enough step to take). So would they be willing to take this issue down to the bitter end and close Hobby Lobby entirely if/when the Supreme Court shuts the door on their legal challenge?
    these are all good questions and I, personally think, they would close the doors on their business or sell out to another party. Since they have made their personal fortune already, they will not be the ones hurt.

    They have never claimed to be anything but a secular company owned by a family who is devoutly Christian. And they have used every legal avenue to divorce their personal liability from their professional liability. That will always come back and bite them in the bum as they continue to tilt at this wind mill.
    Sheilah
    agreed. I, too, think that they will find they do not qualify for any exemptions and will be ruled against. I wonder how long that will take? Could be *years*.
    Last edited by threedogpack; Jan. 1, 2013 at 02:15 PM. Reason: corrected terminology



  17. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Cheval Convert:

    What you do not understand is people speaking of your posts and ideas, which is what posters are speaking to since it is a BB and I don't "know" anyone on the BB, are referring to those posts and ideas and not YOU. I cannot understand how people can not understand that concept on here.

    You made a list of personal greivances in your post, non of it was personal, you just chose to read it that way. That was your choice for reasons I cannot understand.

    Hope you can better understand what debate is, if you identify all of your opinions and ideas as you personally then you should not be debating. I certainly won't respond to any of your posts.
    So, let's see if I have this straight, when someone, not you, quotes me and then makes a statement referring to the quote, the statement is not about me or the quote in particular but about all people of faith (in this instance) in general. I'm sure most of them would prefer not to be lumped together with me nor spoken for by me. I am not known for being a very good Catholic. (And most of the Christian world would definitely prefer not to be associated with a Catholic, we are a cult you know)



  18. #598
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    With any luck they'll go bust quite quickly, paying $1.3m a day in to the Treasury coffers. They will be helping to balance the budget too.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #599
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    Sep. 24, 2004
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    Sounds like HL is a business owned by a family, not a public corporation. As such they are within their rights to do anything short of illegal with the business. They have no fiduciary duty to anyone. Pay above minimum wage, close on Sunday, etc. The issue is ACA makes illegal a non-act... Not paying for abortions, BC or what-ever. The owners object.

    Would not you object if the gov't said to you ... You must feed x feed to your owned horse everyday or suffer a significant fine.

    I would .. and if I owned HL with enough money for the rest of my life. I would give the business up before compromising my morals.

    But then I'm much more unforgiving and stubborn about such.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #600
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    Sep. 24, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post
    With any luck they'll go bust quite quickly, paying $1.3m a day in to the Treasury coffers. They will be helping to balance the budget too.
    So .. You wish 1000's of their employees to lose their job and suffer. HL is not stupid. Asset liquidation will net them more money, for the same effect.
    Unemployement benefits for those 1000's will cost the gov't (you & me) big time.

    In a game of chicken... Immediate business halt with 1000's of employees furloughed is pretty big statement. Judge Sotomeyer says it's no big deal.

    Which is the stupid course of action?


    2 members found this post helpful.

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