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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    The entire argument is based on religious "rights" being aserted by the corporation so by their own argument "stating that their religious beliefs say that birth control is wrong" they are imposing their religious beliefs on their employees by forcing employees who do not subscribe to the corporation's owners religious beliefs to pay for birth control out of their own wages.
    You have it backwards. The assertion is the the Govt can not impose its morals on HL. That is the root of this upcoming lawsuit.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #242
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    Saw this on a "Friend's" Facebook page just now, and thought it would be an interesting addition to the conversation here

    ****************************************

    Letter from Hobby Lobby:

    A Letter from Hobby Lobby Stores CEO
    By David Green, the founder and CEO of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

    When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we
    were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word. From there,Hobby Lobby has become one of the nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.

    We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest. We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.

    But now, our government threatens to change all of that. A new government health care mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs. It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one. If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.

    Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy. Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running. Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs. It's not right. I know people will say we ought to follow the rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true. The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost. But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

    So, Hobby Lobby � and my family � are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

    My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is going to make that much more difficult. The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law. I say that's a choice no American � and no American business � should have to make.
    The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief. They have exempted thousands of companies but will not except Christian organizations including the Catholic church.

    Since you will not see this covered in any of the liberal media, pass this on to all your contacts.
    Sincerely,
    David Green, CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #243
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    Oct. 12, 2005
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    Va
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Precisely.

    And since when is the choice to have sex a 'medical issue?'

    Personally the health of our country would be far improved if the government next came in and forced people to only eat healthy food and imposed a fine if they ate stuff out of a box.
    That's next!



  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Hosspuller, I don't think anyone is requesting a pony for their own health care. But you and Noms can live in that world where there are no limitations on literal language and that the courts don't exist in the US.

    Delusions are free, but some of us are actually knowledgable about the reality of the laws that we all live by. And other's posts are a waste of time...
    Well, I think I am going to demand that a "pony" clause be added to my benefits package. I am going to HR first thing Wed morning.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #245
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    You have it backwards. The assertion is the the Govt can not impose its morals on HL. That is the root of this upcoming lawsuit.
    No. The government passed the bill and the supreme court called it constitutional.

    Wow, maybe get a little up to speed on current events.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #246
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    Aug. 21, 2002
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    Rumor has it, that a healthy sex life within the bounds of matrimony is healthy and even good, even ifyou and your spouse don't want to pump out a kid every eleven months


    9 members found this post helpful.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    I give up, Noms. You've successfully worn me out. How anybody can be so arrogant and so uninformed all at the same time is absolutely galling to me. And yet, here you are.
    Noms' belligerent stupidity on this issue (the fiscal cliff) has earned her a spot on my ignore list, and I've only put maybe 2 other people on it in 10 years.. It's not because she makes me angry, but because she has pretty much proven in this thread that none of her opinions have any merit. This level of obliviousness makes me pretty confident there is no reason to take anything she says seriously so I'm certain I won't miss anything if I never read one of her posts again.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    No. The government passed the bill and the supreme court called it constitutional.

    Wow, maybe get a little up to speed on current events.
    I don't have time to research this now, but I believe that most of the Act was upheld by SCOTUS in connection with the constitutional challenges brought by individual states - none of which involved the freedom of religion issue. I don't believe SCOTUS has had a chance to rule on any religious based constitutional challenges to date.

    Please, someone jump in and correct me if this is inaccurate.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    No. The government passed the bill and the supreme court called it constitutional.

    Wow, maybe get a little up to speed on current events.
    Frustration begins where knowledge ends!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lin View Post
    Rumor has it, that a healthy sex life within the bounds of matrimony is healthy and even good, even ifyou and your spouse don't want to pump out a kid every eleven months
    This whole topic does remind me of the Monty Python movie "The Life of Brian." The "Every Sperm is Sacred" skit is a howler!
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by bauhaus View Post
    Noms' belligerent stupidity on this issue (the fiscal cliff) has earned her a spot on my ignore list, and I've only put maybe 2 other people on it in 10 years.. It's not because she makes me angry, but because she has pretty much proven in this thread that none of her opinions have any merit. This level of obliviousness makes me pretty confident there is no reason to take anything she says seriously so I'm certain I won't miss anything if I never read one of her posts again.
    I am sure you are a democrat.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    I am sure you are a democrat.
    See, this is why we need the red thumb guys.

    Wait, I got it anyway.

    Noms, I think you're an asshat. A belligerent one.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    8 members found this post helpful.

  13. #253
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    Crap, now my flank is exposed and the liberals are circling: Where's Bluey??


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #254
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    Hey, don't drag Bluey into this, I like Bluey!
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris



  15. #255
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    You are correct. You can Google and read the ruling but here is a summary

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...obamacare.html

    "In its ruling, the court held that the law could not be upheld under the Commerce Clause, which was the government’s primary argument in its support. “The Federal Government does not have the power to order people to buy health insurance,” Roberts wrote for the majority.


    But wait—doesn’t that mean the law should’ve been struck down?

    The Commerce Clause argument was only one of three the government made in support of the law. It also argued that the law could be considered a tax, and this is the argument the court bought.

    Specifically, the court held that the individual mandate is not a “penalty,” as the health-care law identified it, but a tax, and therefore a constitutional application of Congress’s taxation power."

    The current lawsuits about religious freedom would be invalid if already decided or ruled upon
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    Hey, don't drag Bluey into this, I like Bluey!
    Minnie? Anyone?



  17. #257
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    *runs off to make some popcorn*
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    You are correct. You can Google and read the ruling but here is a summary

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...obamacare.html

    "In its ruling, the court held that the law could not be upheld under the Commerce Clause, which was the government’s primary argument in its support. “The Federal Government does not have the power to order people to buy health insurance,” Roberts wrote for the majority.


    But wait—doesn’t that mean the law should’ve been struck down?

    The Commerce Clause argument was only one of three the government made in support of the law. It also argued that the law could be considered a tax, and this is the argument the court bought.

    Specifically, the court held that the individual mandate is not a “penalty,” as the health-care law identified it, but a tax, and therefore a constitutional application of Congress’s taxation power."

    The current lawsuits about religious freedom would be invalid if already decided or ruled upon
    SV, this rebuts your earlier post #245 regarding the SCOTUS finding the individual mandate consitutional, which has NOTHING to do with HL's issue.
    Last edited by Noms; Dec. 30, 2012 at 05:51 PM. Reason: clarity


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
    *runs off to make some popcorn*
    Yay, huh! I imagine this thread will really blow up tonight when people are home and online.

    I've been participating today because I am chained to my desk at the office, and this has provided a nice diversion from my review of client docs. But when I get home tonight I am engaging in my own personal Downton Abby season 2 marathon, so I can catch up before the third season starts.

    I can't imagine what this is going to look like in the morning!
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #260
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    The company itself says that they don't want to cover BC in their insurance because it's against their religious beliefs.

    So, for all of those fine with the company imposing its religious beliefs on its empoyees, what about if the owners were Christian Scientists and said they don't believe in any healthcare? You have to think about the precedent is sets. I'm guessing if it was a non-Christian religion wanting to deny things to employees because it didn't sit with the company's religious views, people would be screaming "First Ammendment!" at the top of their lungs.


    5 members found this post helpful.

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