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  1. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post
    So it sounds like all they refuse to provide coverage for is things like Plan B, not regular birth control pills.
    No. They don't to cover the birth control pill b/c they mistakenly think it's an abortion pill. Which it is not. But they're not going to let a little thing like facts get in the way of their argument.


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  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    No. They don't to cover the birth control pill b/c they mistakenly think it's an abortion pill. Which it is not. But they're not going to let a little thing like facts get in the way of their argument.
    How do you know this to be true of HL benefit plan? Are you covered by their plan?



  3. #763
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    Mea culpa. I thought we had been discussing Hobby Lobby being opposed to the birth control pill. Now all I can find is them being opposed to Plan B. Did they change their stance, or am I just thinking of the Catholic Church thing?

    Anyways, Plan B is still NOT an abortion-inducing drug, it's completely and totally different from the abortion pill (RU-48-something). If anything, it prevents abortions. So, their arguement is still totally flawed and fallacious.


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  4. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    Mea culpa. I thought we had been discussing Hobby Lobby being opposed to the birth control pill. Now all I can find is them being opposed to Plan B. Did they change their stance, or am I just thinking of the Catholic Church thing?

    Anyways, Plan B is still NOT an abortion-inducing drug, it's completely and totally different from the abortion pill (RU-48-something). If anything, it prevents abortions. So, their arguement is still totally flawed and fallacious.
    Yup, supposedly they do cover regular BC though i don'tknow specifics. However some people do believe that hormonal BC could/might prevent an embryo from implanting, same with IUD's.

    However i would REALLY like to know how the Green family can claim they are so anti abortion and ignore the pro abortion policies of their major supplier.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


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  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post

    However i would REALLY like to know how the Green family can claim they are so anti abortion and ignore the pro abortion policies of their major supplier.
    It's really about the money. That's all. Follow the money.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  6. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    Mea culpa. I thought we had been discussing Hobby Lobby being opposed to the birth control pill. Now all I can find is them being opposed to Plan B. Did they change their stance, or am I just thinking of the Catholic Church thing?

    Anyways, Plan B is still NOT an abortion-inducing drug, it's completely and totally different from the abortion pill (RU-48-something). If anything, it prevents abortions. So, their arguement is still totally flawed and fallacious.
    Frizzle ... thank you for a mature response.

    While I'm not a part of HL or affected by their policy, I do see a logic in their opposition... When does human life begin? If HL /Green believes at the moment of conception, then anything after that point is abortion. Anything before coitus is not abortion.

    Knives, suction tubes, or "plan B" It is just a matter of how many cells to be disposed of.

    What about HL's argument is "totally flawed and fallacious" ?



  7. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    What about HL's argument is "totally flawed and fallacious" ?
    that they happily deal with China:
    Strict one child policy, and abortions, even LATE term abortions are rather the norm than the exception, plus baby girls are often cast away like rubbish.

    How does that jive with the whole gig? And the guy is pumping a lot more money into that system than he would have to pay for the morning after pill!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.


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  8. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    that they happily deal with China:
    Strict one child policy, and abortions, even LATE term abortions are rather the norm than the exception, plus baby girls are often cast away like rubbish.

    How does that jive with the whole gig? And the guy is pumping a lot more money into that system than he would have to pay for the morning after pill!
    And you assume that HL can even get China's gov't to notice them? How much stuff do you have in your life that was manufactured in China?


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  9. #769
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    I will never spend another dime in Hobby Lobby no matter how the situation turns out. Sorry if consumer retaliation affects the jobs of anyone who works there but there are more reasonable shopping alternatives at stores which don't cram their religious beliefs down my throat through actions like the one referenced in the OP.
    I ride a mule. I paint dogs.


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  10. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    And you assume that HL can even get China's gov't to notice them? How much stuff do you have in your life that was manufactured in China?
    whoa, buddy....

    How much stuff *I* have made in China is not the discussion point.
    I d hold my believes, but do not cram them down other people's throats.


    The point is, if the man feels so strongly about these matters, should he then not deal accordingly with suppliers who share his believes?
    But in this case, it suits his bottom line to support abortion, while it suits his agenda to have thoughts about the morning after pill....
    THERE is the fallacy.
    you can get cheap stuff made in other parts of the 3rd world....where they have other ideas about family planning....

    It's the double standard....

    I don't mind cheap crap from China. Otherwise I would not have any crap at all...but I also don't assume I have the moral high ground to tell people how they need to live their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.


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  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    Frizzle ... thank you for a mature response.

    While I'm not a part of HL or affected by their policy, I do see a logic in their opposition... When does human life begin? If HL /Green believes at the moment of conception, then anything after that point is abortion. Anything before coitus is not abortion.

    Knives, suction tubes, or "plan B" It is just a matter of how many cells to be disposed of.

    What about HL's argument is "totally flawed and fallacious" ?
    Most reputable sources agree that Plan B does NOT induce abortions or prevent implantation of an embryo. It is designed to prevent ovulation.

    HL seems to be confusing it with the true abortion pill RU-486
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  12. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Most reputable sources agree that Plan B does NOT induce abortions or prevent implantation of an embryo. It is designed to prevent ovulation.

    HL seems to be confusing it with the true abortion pill RU-486

    Info from Not just a reputable source ... the actual producers of Plan "B"

    From the plan "B" website...

    Link here >> http://www.planb.ca/how.html

    "...How does plan B work? plan B is two pills which you take together. If taken within 72 hours, it prevents pregnancy by doing one of three things:
    Temporarily stops the release of an egg from the ovary
    Prevents fertilization
    Prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus"


    My bolding... the last drug action "might" be HL/Green issue if my previously mentioned logic applies.



  13. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    Info from Not just a reputable source ... the actual producers of Plan "B"

    From the plan "B" website...

    Link here >> http://www.planb.ca/how.html

    "...How does plan B work? plan B is two pills which you take together. If taken within 72 hours, it prevents pregnancy by doing one of three things:
    Temporarily stops the release of an egg from the ovary
    Prevents fertilization
    Prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus"


    My bolding... the last drug action "might" be HL/Green issue if my previously mentioned logic applies.
    The thing is....it's hard to do actual research on the mechanism of the drug action. IOW you can't get a bunch of women"pregnant" and then see if the embryo implants or not. So the manufacturers have to put the "might" in there. They DO know that the drug works best when taken early in a woman's cycle, before she ovulates. Effectiveness decreases post ovulation, implying but not proving that the third mechanism isn't happening

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/he...anted=all&_r=0
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  14. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    The thing is....it's hard to do actual research on the mechanism of the drug action. IOW you can't get a bunch of women"pregnant" and then see if the embryo implants or not. So the manufacturers have to put the "might" in there. They DO know that the drug works best when taken early in a woman's cycle, before she ovulates. Effectiveness decreases post ovulation, implying but not proving that the third mechanism isn't happening
    " Hard to do" research is not a answer. The actual documents from the drug manufacturer don't imply... they state the drug stops a fertilized egg otherwise known as human life from continuing.

    Logically, I understand HL's position. Until the manufacturer & the US gov't agree to change Plan "B" published documents, then the fact of abortion stands.

    It is bad policy to accept a "might" as a base when documented otherwise.

    Does gas fracking cause drinking water contaimination? So far not proven or documented so it's a "Might" basis. I'd allow a fracked gas well on my property. (I would test my well before drilling to establish a base. I'm logical not stupid)



  15. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    " Hard to do" research is not a answer. The actual documents from the drug manufacturer don't imply... they state the drug stops a fertilized egg otherwise known as human life from continuing.

    Logically, I understand HL's position. Until the manufacturer & the US gov't agree to change Plan "B" published documents, then the fact of abortion stands.

    It is bad policy to accept a "might" as a base when documented otherwise.

    Does gas fracking cause drinking water contaimination? So far not proven or documented so it's a "Might" basis. I'd allow a fracked gas well on my property. (I would test my well before drilling to establish a base. I'm logical not stupid)
    I don't suppose you read the link I posted.

    In part"It turns out that the politically charged debate over morning-after pills and abortion, a divisive issue in this election year, is probably rooted in outdated or incorrect scientific guesses about how the pills work. Because they block creation of fertilized eggs, they would not meet abortion opponents’ definition of abortion-inducing drugs. In contrast, RU-486, a medication prescribed for terminating pregnancies, destroys implanted embryos.
    The notion that morning-after pills prevent eggs from implanting stems from the Food and Drug Administration’s decision during the drug-approval process to mention that possibility on the label — despite lack of scientific proof, scientists say, and objections by the manufacturer of Plan B, the pill on the market the longest. Leading scientists say studies since then provide strong evidence that Plan B does not prevent implantation, and no proof that a newer type of pill, Ella, does. Some abortion opponents said they remain unconvinced."
    Last edited by carolprudm; Feb. 22, 2013 at 05:39 PM.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  16. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post

    Does gas fracking cause drinking water contaimination? So far not proven or documented so it's a "Might" basis. I'd allow a fracked gas well on my property. (I would test my well before drilling to establish a base. I'm logical not stupid)
    completely off topic but... you would? Really?
    You do realize that if it in fact is 'bad', then you've ruined your water well, and your home most likely has 0 resale value without a well, right?

    Things like that go in the 'Only when they prove it doesn't' category


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  17. #777
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    The morning after pill is NOT an abortion-inducing pill. Period. There are tons of embryos that are thrown out during IVF, and those are not considered life. It is NOT an abortion until AFTER the embryo has implanted.


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  18. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    completely off topic but... you would? Really?
    You do realize that if it in fact is 'bad', then you've ruined your water well, and your home most likely has 0 resale value without a well, right?

    Things like that go in the 'Only when they prove it doesn't' category
    That's the reason for a baseline test... logical & prudent not stupid.



  19. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I don't suppose you read the link I posted.
    You suppose wrongly. I did...

    You may have the last words on this... your snark attitude isn't discussion.



  20. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    That's the reason for a baseline test... logical & prudent not stupid.
    Brilliant, yes a baseline is smart to have... but it doesn't change the fact that if drilling or fracking ruins water wells, regardless of a baseline that will show it's ruined and how ruined,... it's still ruined.

    That was my point.
    Regardless of a baseline, once you've destroyed your well water... based on comparing post to the baseline, it's still ruined.

    And yes, or course someone has to do it to figure out if it in fact is problematic, but like the testing of many drugs out there, the challenge is finding people dumb enough to want to take that chance that it in fact is dangerous and offer themselves up as guinea pigs.


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